Would you cross Biscay in an AWB ??

[Marsupial]

That was almost exactly what I was thinking....

There is now a happy ground between AWB and MAB... and 75k gets you well into that zone...

The Starlight is there.... Sigma 362 easily... even a good Sigma 38 I would have thought... or a Vancouver 34 or Rustler 36.... You might even be getting into HR 352 territory...

If a person is thinking first boat 38-40 feet... then in reality they probably only need 34-36 tops.... we always seem to want a bigger boat than makes sense at the start..

Sigma 38 is CAT B AVS 116deg goes like a scalded cat but . .

Vancouver 34 is CAT A but STIX 35 or 36 depending on year has a long way to improve to get into the mid 40's.

Rusler 36 a stunning boat to look at but is only STIX 37, still a way to go - or needs more development

perhaps more modern designs would be better.

 

[Blueboatman]

People cross Biscay in all sorts of boats.

The Original Posters budget should provide for a pretty decent boat 'fit for purpose'.

Though I would listen to the voice of a really experienced surveyor rather than reading too much into manufacturers values.

For what it is worth I have crossed Biscay 3 times, all in boats that were, by current definitions, sub AWB standard.
For actually sailing (!) I am not a huge fan of high freeboard fat boats with small keels and swept back spreader masts, but there you go. That is what people want to sprawl around on at the journeys end, and why not?

 

[Robin]

Stix and stones and puppy dog bones.

Boats don't sail by numbers dreamed up by mathematicians however clever!

The 'right' wave will capsize any boat regardless so seeking out the highest numbers makes no real difference to the price of beans.

Sure, avoid wide flush decked flat tops that have no reserve buoyancy upside down as well as boats with large hull openings that would be submerged in a partial knockdown, that doesn't need a PhD in Pure Maths to work out.

Cats sail the world but like being upside down just as much as the right way up, although they do have a high AVS I guess!

Boats have been sailing the oceans for a very long time without knowing about AVS and STIX numbers. Some of the famous older ones with massive ballast ratios and long keels were rolled or pitchpoled regardless (so met the 'right' wave) yet some of them like the tiddler Shrimpy a bilge keeled plywood 21ft (I think) Caprice still managed it intact and I know a Hunter 19 did a transat solo and there are many others.

The most important feature is the NUT at the end of the tiller.[/RANT]

 

[photodog]

Sigma 38 is CAT B AVS 116deg goes like a scalded cat but . .

Vancouver 34 is CAT A but STIX 35 or 36 depending on year has a long way to improve to get into the mid 40's.

Rusler 36 a stunning boat to look at but is only STIX 37, still a way to go - or needs more development

perhaps more modern designs would be better.

Which really show just how bonkers the whole thing is!

 

[oldvarnish]

Stix and stones and puppy dog bones.


Boats have been sailing the oceans for a very long time without knowing about AVS and STIX numbers. Some of the famous older ones with massive ballast ratios and long keels were rolled or pitchpoled regardless (so met the 'right' wave) yet some of them like the tiddler Shrimpy a bilge keeled plywood 21ft (I think) Caprice still managed it intact and I know a Hunter 19 did a transat solo and there are many others.

The most important feature is the NUT at the end of the tiller.[/RANT]

Strongly agree with all that. 'It aint the boats, it's them that's in 'em'
On the Yachting World website ( I think) there's a very good article by Elaine Bunting on all the things you DON'T need to sail the Atlantic. It's amongst some of the best sense I've read in a long time.

 

[hobgoblin]

Well it depends which one!

I have been across in Grinde 27 ft. A Camper and Nich and a Sigma 362. On each occasion we had calm weather. If you choise the weather and have a good boat you will be fine....BUT there are some modern boats that are not suitable........Look at the boats out sailing and crossing the channel you will soon get a view of the right boat!!

 

[Lady Campanula]

As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of
£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

This is a Biscay transit on an AWB. The most dangerous thing on that trip was the skipper's rancid chicken.....

However, we did take considerable care to insist on some fine, stable weather....

 

[Ubergeekian]

I was in Rodney Bay in december when the ARC had finished and was very surprised on just how many AWB's there was.

Isn't that kind of the point of the ARC, thought? A shepherded crossing for less experienced sailors in less hardcore boats. Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course.

 

[Ubergeekian]

it is always worth reading MAIB reports

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Ocean Madam.pdf

Oooyah.

Ocean Madam was a production Beneteau Oceanis 390 yacht. The class is typical
of its type with a high volume, low ballast ratio, light displacement and shallow
hull form. It is highly suitable for most activities including charter work and has a
good safety record. It is not a suitable craft for crossing oceans in bad weather.

That aside, fascinating reading. Thanks.

 

[jonic]

This is a Biscay transit on an AWB. The most dangerous thing on that trip was the skipper's rancid chicken.....

Thats not an awb! Thats a Moody 38, same as mine.

 

[adl]

I was in Las Palmas before the ARC 99 (On a Oyster 46) when a chap moored up next to us on a brand new Bavaria 38, he had crossed biscay in either October/November due to the delivery of the boat. Only thing wrong with it was a broken gooseneck at the boom/mast connection after a gybe of a big wave.

I saw him in St Lucia and he had had an ok crossing.

The thing about some of these lighter displacement boats it that if you are crossing oceans they are ok in light winds as they keep the ave speed up. However, when the weather gets a bit dirty I expect you would want something a bit more stable.

If you can plan our ocean crossings for the right time of year i.e. the ARC. Then you shouldn't have any problems.

Boat just needs to be set up for bad weather sailing and the crew to have an idea of what it will be like when it is bad and how to sail in it. The last thing you want is sea sickness and being under manned.

Why not go for something a bit older with thats recently had some money spent on it.

 

[webcraft]

.
To get back to the original poster, what do you want the boat for? If you primarily plan to live aboard and cruise in a fixed area, eg Med or Canaries, then if an AWB is what you fancy get one and time any major crossings to suit the boat. If however voyaging is the priority then maybe an AWB is not your best choice.

Going to sea will never be risk-free, but remember the Atlantic has been crossed by a man in an amphibious jeep, a guy in an inflatable liferaft and several unmanned abandoned yachts. For a direct crossing Scillies to La Coruna four days is realistic in an AWB around 35ft so you should be able to pick a window.

- W

 

[Lady Campanula]

Thats not an awb! Thats a Moody 38, same as mine.

Nope. It's a wee bit bigger than that. And the owner of this 'wet dream' will be along any day soon to say so.

 

[KellysEye]

>Isn't that kind of the point of the ARC, thought? A shepherded crossing for less experienced sailors in less hardcore boats.

That's one of sailing's fallacies, it isn't a shepherded crossing, once the boats leave the crews are on their own and many boats don't see another ARC boat until they arrive. Also you'll also find that many of the crews are very experienced, multiple crossings, long distance racers etc.

I wouldn't take an AWB over Biscay or any ocean passage not because they can't do it, many have, but because they are uncomfortable. Chuck Paine designed some of the best cruising boats and they are all 20/20 - 20 degrees heel at 20 knots. As far as I know no AWB's have that as a design criteria. To put that into context our boat doesn't get the rail in the water, doesn't turn up into wind in gusts, doesn't broach, has a loping motion upwind with no slamming. A comfortable way to sail and reassuring for her indoors when she is on watch at night - and for me for that matter. Fully crewed probably doesn't need that.

 

[Robin]

>Isn't that kind of the point of the ARC, thought? A shepherded crossing for less experienced sailors in less hardcore boats.

That's one of sailing's fallacies, it isn't a shepherded crossing, once the boats leave the crews are on their own and many boats don't see another ARC boat until they arrive. Also you'll also find that many of the crews are very experienced, multiple crossings, long distance racers etc.

I wouldn't take an AWB over Biscay or any ocean passage not because they can't do it, many have, but because they are uncomfortable. Chuck Paine designed some of the best cruising boats and they are all 20/20 - 20 degrees heel at 20 knots. As far as I know no AWB's have that as a design criteria. To put that into context our boat doesn't get the rail in the water, doesn't turn up into wind in gusts, doesn't broach, has a loping motion upwind with no slamming. A comfortable way to sail and reassuring for her indoors when she is on watch at night - and for me for that matter. Fully crewed probably doesn't need that.

That sounds like my boat I just sold except 20 degs of heel is excessive, not at all comfy IMO! Sailing at our optimum upwind speed of 7kts at just 28 degs to the apparent wind and heel angle of 15 degs max (ie the upper half of the helm seat or the upwind coaming are now horizontal) is the routine. Lee rail awash is so slow and life aboard uncomfy!

But then she was but a humble old Jeanneau, albeit designed by a master in the form of Dog Peterson.

 

[Ubergeekian]

>Isn't that kind of the point of the ARC, thought? A shepherded crossing for less experienced sailors in less hardcore boats.

That's one of sailing's fallacies, it isn't a shepherded crossing, once the boats leave the crews are on their own and many boats don't see another ARC boat until they arrive. Also you'll also find that many of the crews are very experienced, multiple crossings, long distance racers etc.

OK, thanks. Serious question then - what's the point for them? Is it just the parties? I got the impression that it was a beginners' way across because of pre-race instruction, checks on boats, smoothed over paperwork and so on (that's really what I meant by "shepherded") - and none of that would be needed by expereince sailors, would it?

I wouldn't take an AWB over Biscay or any ocean passage not because they can't do it, many have, but because they are uncomfortable. Chuck Paine designed some of the best cruising boats and they are all 20/20 - 20 degrees heel at 20 knots.

I've just bought a Chuck Paine design, and although I haven't sailed her yet, that is its reputation. It'll be interesting to check ...

 

[KellysEye]

>what's the point for them? Is it just the parties? I got the impression that it was a beginners' way across because of pre-race instruction, checks on boats, smoothed over paperwork and so on (that's really what I meant by "shepherded") - and none of that would be needed by expereince sailors, would it?

I think the main reason is people (even experienced people) like rallies for the reasons you said, including the parties, lack of paperwork etc. There's a lot of camerarderie and new lifelong friends made. Checking boats is no bad thing but is an insurance requirement for the organisers. There are large number of boats and skipppers who do multiple ARC's, we've seen boats flying four/five Arc flags for different years.

Also, the radio net is a good safety feature but it's no different from what independent cruisers do. They also meet in the Canaries/Cape Verdes and organise a rollling net, as one net contoller at the front reaches the Caribbean another at the back takes over.

>I've just bought a Chuck Paine design, and although I haven't sailed her yet, that is its reputation. It'll be interesting to check ...

Good choice, I suspect you'll love her. We had sailed AWB's ranging from 25 feet to 52 feet for twenty years but after a day of sailing a 20/20 boat we were staggered by the difference.

>Robin: But then she was but a humble old Jeanneau, albeit designed by a master in the form of Dog Peterson.

We've sailed a number of old Jeanneaus and they were good boats (better than Beneteaus of the time) but they weren't 20/20 boats.