Would you cross Biscay in an AWB ??

[webcraft]

.
Scillies to La Coruna is only a four day run in decent winds in a 37 footer. While forecasting isn't perfect you will be able to pick a fairly reliable window if you are prepared to wait a few days. Any time from May to the end of August is the normal annual window of opportunity. I've been across twice, oncein May in a Moody 33S and once in August in an Albin Vega 27. We motored all the way in a flat calm in the Moody and had nothing worse than F6 in the Vega.

(When we left Portugal for Lanzarote in the Vega we ended up unable to make our course and were hammered in a F8-9 off Porto Santo, Madeira, so Biscay isn't your only hurdle on this trip - although you could coast hop down Morocco)

Most Biscay horror stories seem to involve setting out with an unsuitable forecast because the skipper was determined to go, or setting out at an usuitable time of year. These are much more important factors than the boat itself IMO. Deadlines kill sailors and pilots every year.

- W

 

[vyv_cox]

The inverted stability and time to right are interesting, I think. Accepting that AWBs have a tendency to be fairly stable when inverted by nature of their design, what is the effect of badly stowed gear when in the inverted condition? If lockers empty of tins (FB pies?) sole boards, batteries, tools, crew, etc all finish up on the inside of the coach roof, how much might that delay righting?

 

[Chris_Robb]

£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

No-one has given you any alternative suggestion, but you may want to go and look at some older, but very well built boats in the Westerly and Moody ranges - you WILL find what you are looking for there. They tend to be marginally heavier so have a kinder movement in a seaway. It is worth noting that the lighter and more volumous the hull, the harder it is on the crew - who will often fail before the boat.

 

[matt1]

As others have said; it was a 390 not the more recent 393. IIRC it was also out of season and I agree with other threads here that he was probably unwise to set out with that forecast & crew (although of course even with improved forecasting you shouldn't undertake such a passage assuming / hoping you won't get bad weather)

I was especially interested in this story since a few years earlier I had been on a delivery of the bigger sistership (the Oceanis 430 - essentially an identical design just scaled up a bit) to the Carribean. When we arrived in St Lucia we moored alongside another 430 which had been rolled at some point on her delivery, losing her mast and granny bars in the process. We crossed out of season and experiened a gale off Finistere (an area that IMHO is frequently underestimated and possibly worse than the non continental shelf area of Biscay). We were running before the gale off Finistere and broached badly on a very large rogue wave. I was at the helm at the time, convinced that we would be rolled (the wave was just so out of proportion with everything else that we had otherwise been handling just fine!). What happened next really surprised me. As we rounded up, with the wave breaking on the stbd side, instead of being rolled the boat was just "shoved" sideways at about 6 knots or more (although we did heel alarmingly .

I'm convinced this was due to the Oceanis having a relatively shallow draught...there simply wasn't enough area or depth in the keel to trip her up when the wave broke.

Long and tortuous story over with...back to the original question...yes, I would sail a 393 across Biscay and would probably sail MOST AWB's if properly prepared, well skippered and well crewed preferably at the appropriate time of the year.

 

[Ludd]

Still looking into this boat that I will be looking to buy next year ish and have just read an article about a benny 393 that lost a crew member over the side after suffering a knockdown in a F9 where the boat didnt right itself for some time, the MIAB mentioned that the weight of the boat was of course a factor, although this happened some time ago It got me thinking about whether an AWB would be the right choice to get me to the Canaries in one piece? As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of
£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

I crossed Biscay 2 summers ago in an Oceanis 4occ. Physically the boat did it ok,but **** deck gear and in-mast roller reefing. The boat was 7 years old. We had no more than 36kts of wind,moderate seas.

BUT she slammed on wavelets and every seal on every port and hatch leaked.Dorade vents leaked.The cockpit was the driest place in the boat!
She was wet from the companionway to the forepeak and tired me out.
Heaving -to meant sliding sideways at 2 knots.

My boat is long keel 35ft,seen some bad stuff(not BISCAY till end of July!)
and is far less tiring. NOT prejudiced against lighter boats although I hurl abuse at them as they leave me for dead in light winds!

Pic of the worst bit attached

 

[jonic]

In answer to the op's question. Yes.

Biscay has a reputation because in the days of the old square riggers if you were caught and "embayed" there, you were in trouble. A south westerly heaping all that incoming Atlantic up over the continental shelf creates enormous seas. With little shelter on the lee shore older sailing ships could not claw their way out.

Look for a weather forecast that gives plenty of room either side, avoid a "tight" window and consider leaving from Benodet or Cameret in France and heading for La Coruna or Gijon. (Great food in all of those!).

I have had a flat calm across most of Biscay by doing just that, but I did wait almost two weeks for it in Benodet.

As others have said look at some Moody's or Westerlies too. Another you might consider is a Dufour 41 Classic.

You have just missed one that we had but the details are still there in my signature link below if you want to have a look.

 

[Marsupial]

Still looking into this boat that I will be looking to buy next year ish and have just read an article about a benny 393 that lost a crew member over the side after suffering a knockdown in a F9 where the boat didnt right itself for some time, the MIAB mentioned that the weight of the boat was of course a factor, although this happened some time ago It got me thinking about whether an AWB would be the right choice to get me to the Canaries in one piece? As previously posted I am looking at a max budget of
£70-£75k was hoping to get a minimum of 37 ft and like the look of the S/O 37 and oceanis 393? Any thoughts or suggestions of other boats?

That incident was very unfortunate, more to do with adverse conditions (large breaking waves) and the course chosen rather than the design of the boat.

Dont forget the boat a 390 was a 1989 boat built before the RCD came into effect (1996), in fact it was that incident that contributed much to equipment design and liferaft design. In the end what we can learn from that event is that the boat despite its relativley low AVS* did survive, the loss of the crew very regretable.

* the AVS stated in the report is 109deg but that was for a bare hull, add another 5 or so to get a comparision with what is around today, but even then 114deg is on the low side.

For what its worth I would rather be in modern AWB design than an old long keeler in those conditions (large breaking waves), but thats my choice others will have their choice.

For guidance, its NOT definitive but look a STIX numbers, and you will find that not all AWB's blow about like crisp packets! some are not built down to a price and some even from mass producers are quite seaworthy. To be cat A a boat needs a STIX number of 32, at the "just scraped in end of the market" there are lots of 32's they all look the same and cost nearly the same, find one with STIX over 40 you wont be disapointed. But Yes ALL will cross biscay if properly managed.

Like others on this forum I used to think that french boats sailed best with the mast pointing downwards and brit boats were good because they weighed so much more, had long keels, litte engines and tons of ballast, I have learned that this is not the case, if the old heavy design was so good then ocean 60's would look like them, they dont they have more in common with AWB's.

 

[webcraft]

In answer to the op's question. Yes.

Biscay has a reputation because in the days of the old square riggers if you were caught and "embayed" there, you were in trouble. A south westerly heaping all that incoming Atlantic up over the continental shelf creates enormous seas. With little shelter on the lee shore older sailing ships could not claw their way out.

One other thought -

On our return trip across Biscay from Spain to Ireland in 2007 we snatched a window in between two vigourous depressions. Crossing the continental shelf into the Western Approaches what had been a perfectly reasonable 2-3m swell suddenly started to pile up into all sorts of threatening and unpleasant shapes, chucking us about all over the place. In serious bad weather the edge of the shelf would definitely be a place to avoid IMO, even if it means staying offshore for longer and delaying landfall.

- W

 

[Tommyrot]

Safety at sea is very size dependant

There are many experienced sailors who would disagree with that.

Here's one...

....and another.

 

[doug748]

Here are some figures to aid your prognostications:

BENETEAU 50 AVS 109 STIX 41

BAVARIA 42 STIX 36

BENETEAU 50 STIX 41

BENETEAU 57 STIX 53

CATALINA 34 MK11 STIX 36

CATALINA 42 40 AVS 105

COMET 36 STIX 32.5 AVS 127

CONTESSA 32 STIX 33 AVS 155

CYCLADES 39 STIX 38 AVS 126

CYCLADES 43 STIX 36 AVS 121

DISCOVERY 55 STIX 37 AVS 122

ELAN 37 STIX 40 AVS 136

ELAN 40 STIX 37 AVS 128

ELAN 44 STIX AVS 124

ETAP 32 STIX 36 AVS 122

ETAP 34 STIX 37 AVS 123

ETAP 37 STIX 42 AVS 123

FIRST 36.7 STIX 34 AVS 126

FIRST 40.7 STIX 37 AVS 126

FIRST 42.7 STIX 35 AVS 118

FIRST 44.7 STIX 41 AVS 130

FIRST 47.7 STIX 46 AVS 123

FISHER 34 STIX 33 AVS 180

FISHER 37 STIX 43 AVS 180

HANSE 371 STIX 35 AVS 122

HANSE 411 STIX 33 AVS 128

HANSE 461 STIX 35

HANSE 531 STIX 39

HARLEY REFLEX 38 STIX 41 AVS 143

HOD 35 STIX 41 AVS 140

HUNTER CHANNEL 31 (single keel) STIX 32 AVS 130

HUNTER CHANNEL 31 (twin keel) STIX 33 AVS 130

HUNTER CHANNEL 323 STIX 35 AVS 149

ISLAND PACKET 350 STIX 49 AVS 141

ISLAND PACKET 370 STIX 43

ISLAND PACKET 380 STIX 55 AVS 136

ISLAND PACKET 420 STIX 59 AVS 136

ISLAND PACKET 440 STIX 48 AVS 133

ISLAND PACKET 445 STIX 53 AVS 141

ISLAND PACKET 485 STIX 66 AVS 143

J12O STIX 43 AVS 127

J100 STIX 37 AVS 126

J125 STIX 42 AVS 131

J133 STIX 46 AVS 130

J145 STIX 52 AVS 139

J160 STIX 57 AVS 118

J42 STIX 45

J46 STIX 48 AVS 127

MALO 45 STIX 62

MISTERY 35 STIX 32 AVS 156

NAJAD 380 STIX 43 AVS 128

OCEANIS 343 STIX 34 AVS 134

OCEANIS 351 STIX 35 AVS 125

OCEANIS 361 STIX 32 AVS 120

OCEANIS 36CC STIX 35 AVS 126

OCEANIS 373 STIX 36 AVS 132

OCEANIS 381 STIX 38 AVS 130

OCEANIS 393 STIX 43

OCEANIS 411 STIX 37 AVS 114

OCEANIS 423 STIX 38 AVS 119

OCEANIS 44CC STIX 34 AVS 110

OCEANIS 461 STIX 37 AVS 115

OCEANIS 473 STIX 48 AVS 119

OCEANIS 523 STIX 46 AVS 111

OCEANIS 42CC STIX 38 AVS 38

SEAQUEST 32 STIX 37 AVS 132

SEAQUEST 36 STIX 46 AVS 142

SEAQUEST PRIMA 38 STIX 52 AVS 131

SOUTHERLY 110 STIX 55 AVS 151

SOUTHERLY 115 STIX 51 AVS 150

SOUTHERLY 35RS STIX 37 AVS 160

SOUTHERLY 135 STIX 54 AVS 139

SUN ODYSSEY 37 STIX 33

SUN ODYSSEY 39i STIX 33

SUN ODYSSEY 40DS STIX 37/39

SUN ODYSSEY 40.3 STIX 36/38

SUN ODYSSEY 43/43DS STIX 44

SUN ODYSSEY 52.2 STIX 50

SUNFAST 35 STIX 33 AVS 127

SUNFAST 37 STIX 32

SWAN 40 STIX 36 AVS 112

SWAN 44 STIX 38 AVS 123

SWAN 45 STIX 57 AVS 134

SWAN 46 STIX 53 AVS 128

SWAN 48 CR/R STIX 49 AVS 135

SWAN 56 R STIX 50 AVS 127

SWAN 56 R/C STIX 55 AVS 124

SWAN 57 RS STIX 53 AVS 132

SWAN 60 R STIX 68 AVS 128

SWAN 60 R/C STIX 70 AVS 122

SWAN 601 STIX 84 AVS 153

SWAN 62 STIX 63 AVS 122

SWAN 68 R STIX 76 AVS 127

SWAN 70 STIX 82 AVS 133

SWAN 75 R STIX 81 AVS 121

SWAN 80 R STIX 80 AVS 138

SWAN 82 R STIX 88 AVS 127

VANCOUVER 28 STIX 36 AVS 170

VANCOUVER 34P STIX 35 AVS 166

VANCOUVER 34C STIX 36 AVS 139

WARRIOR 40 STIX 47 AVS 133

WESTERLY OCEAN 43 STIX 40 AVS 129

X YACHTS 37 STIX 35 AVS 123

X YACHTS 40 STIX 37 AVS 113

X YACHTS IMX 40 STIX 47 AVS 132

X YACHTS 43 STIX 40 AVS 119

X YACHT IMX 45 STIX 46 AVS 124

X YACHT 46 STIX 44 AVS 123

X YACHT 562 STIX 57 AVS 122

X YACHT 612 STIX 51 AVS 110

X YACHT 70 STIX 73 AVS 126

X YACHT 73 STIX 84 AVS 121

The STIX figures for the Oceanis are certainly interesting.

 

[Racecruiser]

Probably worth mentioning that stability when the waves and wind are up is compromised by equipment above the waterline - eg radar up the mast, davits, dinghy, inmast and jib furling all of which would probably not have been taken into account by the designer.

 

[cynthia]

Biscay crossing?

We crossed in a Bav 34. No problems, but we did the weather forecast thoroughly and went when there was a 3 day weather window, it happened to be in April.
Other folk, encountered mid crossing, in an older, heavier boat were impressed when they saw the way the boat handled the crossing, they'd been put off a newer AWB by traditionalists. Don't think there was a lot of difference in how each boat took the waves. All a matter of personal choice.
Think if we'd planned an Atlantic crossing we may have chosen something else, but as we were heading to the Med the Bav has been a good choice for us.

 

[aquaholic]

The MAIB is an independant body set up to investigate accidents so you should not write off what they say in favour of opinions on here.

Every boat is a compromise - boats that would sail the southern oceans would not be suitable for family cruising and vice versa. But yes I would cross Biscay in an AWB but I would chose my weather with care and take a short crossing like from Bordeaux to Bilbao rather than Falmouth to La Coruna. Other people might be less risk averse and get away with it.

Safety at sea is very size dependant so I would chose a big Benny in preference to a small HR

Very usefull comments, thanks.

 

[Gwylan]

Yes! Have done it in March in someone else's bendy ben, but spent a week in Corunna waiting for the right weather window. Still got a bracing couple of days at the end. Would I do it again? Depends who is paying, but it would cost!

 

[silver-fox]

Here is a corroborated story about an AWB in extreme weather.

You might want to read this Speech by the skipper of Avanti (a Beneteau First 38) about the 1998 Sydney to Horbart Race. Given at the Awards Ceremony. January 2, 1999.

The race was hit by atrocious weather in much the same way the infamous Fastnet race was some years earlier. The rest is in the speech - a link is below

Avanti Speech http://reocities.com/TheTropics/5471/avanti.htm

 

[aquaholic]

Wow never expected all of that, but thanks for all the very informative responses, makes for some very interesting reading. Obviously I have been a little over cautious and maybe listening too much to the traditionalists.
The benn'y figures are interesting for the 393 which is one on the short list. However, whats clear to me now after reading all of the information on the posts is that I will not be planning to go for at least 2-3 years in order to gain more experience, the plus side is that I would have had a few years of sailing with the new boat. But again thanks to you all.

 

[jimi]

it is always worth reading MAIB reports

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Ocean Madam.pdf

 

[Seven Spades]

For that budget you could get a decent Starlight 35 and not have to worry about slamming or much else.

 

[SAWDOC]

Here is a corroborated story about an AWB in extreme weather.

You might want to read this Speech by the skipper of Avanti (a Beneteau First 38) about the 1998 Sydney to Horbart Race. Given at the Awards Ceremony. January 2, 1999.

The race was hit by atrocious weather in much the same way the infamous Fastnet race was some years earlier. The rest is in the speech - a link is below

Speech

that link for the speech does not work for me.....

 

[photodog]

For that budget you could get a decent Starlight 35 and not have to worry about slamming or much else.

That was almost exactly what I was thinking....

There is now a happy ground between AWB and MAB... and 75k gets you well into that zone...

The Starlight is there.... Sigma 362 easily... even a good Sigma 38 I would have thought... or a Vancouver 34 or Rustler 36.... You might even be getting into HR 352 territory...

If a person is thinking first boat 38-40 feet... then in reality they probably only need 34-36 tops.... we always seem to want a bigger boat than makes sense at the start..