would you call a pan pan in this situation

[ninky]

Yes, but Wikipedia also claimed that channel 16 ONLY was used for emergencies. Not a word about call-up. Until I edited it....

Also, the "medico" suffix is still in the courses here in Sweden, so if it isn't used anymore then I'd guess this only applies to Britain, which would be a little funny considering it is supposed to be an international code...

i guess the thing with international codes is they are only international if everybody recognises them as such. which clearly they don't.

 

[ChiPete]

Ninky and all the others who took the time to read my account, it's appreciated and the discussion is certainly worthwhile (trolls and armchair sailors excepted....!).

One last note from me - when we got alongside at Hamble HM, there was a Coastguard (I reckon he was CG as he had the right top on and got into a blue and yellow 4x4 with ''Coastguard'' written down the side!)on the pontoon who took one of the lines.

I'm not sure if it's something the CG do for all assisted arrivals whether Advised On 67/Pan/Mayday but he took a few minutes to run us through what had happened and advise on any safety/procedural issues. He stated that the Pan WAS the right thing to have done in that situation and that he was also happy with the safety equipment that he could see on board.

I am comfortable that in the circumstances, SWMBO and I considered the situation and possible risks and carried out the right course of action. As will always be the case, others would do things differently and I bow to their opinion and way of working; that's the way of the world. We, however, wouldn't change our decision, in particular after confirmation from the CG.

Oh, one thing I WOULD change is to not go into F*ckwit Mode and give out the sail number - Doh! Thought I'd got away with that ;-) If we were all in the bar, I'd be standing with my hands held up, a wry grin on my face and buying a rather large round of drinks as pennance for a spot of Muppetry!!!

Safe sailing and all the best,
Pete

 

[lenseman]

. . is there something you can hoist or display to show you are NUC

Flag "U", or more correctly Answering Pennant Flag "U" as a hoist.

. . is there something you can hoist or display to show you are sailing under jury?

Flag "D", or more correctly Answering Pennant Flag "D" as a hoist.

 

[purplerobbie]

You did the right thing.
No one was hurt and nothing was lost and when you consider the alternatives how can a result like that be wrong?
Good Call

Rob

 

[CT115]

Rubbish

Beware of such anchoring advice from Solent Coastguard, I think it is just a standard piece of text in the call center computer driven script. Over the years I have heard Solent CG advise skippers to anchor when doing so is impractical, dangerous or a distraction from dealing with the problem at hand.

When calling Solent Coastguard be alert to the possibility that you are talking to a call center operative with no substantial background in either big ship or leisure boating.

I work as a Watch Officer in one of the MRCCs and would like to say that the above is utter rubbish. A few points for information:

- We do not have any computer driven scripts. When an incident starts we gather information that we use to asses and assist with the incident, this is added to a computer program we use that help us track incidents and see what resources are assigned or actions being taken.

- All staff in the ops rooms are highly trained and most will have either extensive navy experience or leisure water sports experience.

- With broken or otherwise disabled vessels it is very often (although not always) advisable to anchor if possible as this helps stabilise a situation (we do find that during a distress situation people can often forget that they are able to anchor).

- There are no set in stone rules for how to deal with different types of incidents and so the CG response will be based on the information we have available and what we believe to be an appropriate response (this often can be just a case of please check in with us every hour on your progress).

- We would much rather deal with a minor incident early on possibly by sending a Lifeboat or CG Team than have to deal with it as a major incident because it has escalated.

As an example: http://www.clactonandfrintongazette.co.uk/news/localnews/4573305.Late_mayday_scuppers_yacht/

- It is at the sole discretion of the skipper of a vessel what distress or urgency message they put out in any given situation, and this will vary from vessel to vessel and from crew to crew. A Pan Pan or Mayday also has the advantage of alerting other vessels nearby who may be able to offer assistance.

- It is quite normal for a Volunteer CG team to be sent to meet a casualty being brought ashore / into harbour. They are there to provide any assistance needed and can provide safety advice for the future if needed.

I hope this helps give an insight from the other side (By the way I'm also a prolific leisure sailor!)

 

[boomerangben]

Interesting to see how many don't consider the case a Pan call, particularly after the more detailed account of the episode emerged.

Of course it was a pan call. Whether the CG would have mobilised a lifeboat if it wasn't already on the water, we will never know. If the problem was easily solved, without assistance, the pan call could have been cancelled. The same applies to a mayday. No harm if initially the incident requires immediate assistance, only to find later conditions have abated/changed and then downgrade to a pan call.

And Chipete, I don't think passing the sail number was daft, who knows, you might have resorted to sailing in.

 

[Grehan]

Thank you, CT115. Well spoken, well put.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Definition of Pan Pan

I was just reviewing my postings and there are few comments about my posting about Wiki and Pan Pan definition. The point of my comment was the definition from Wiki. It is a reasonable definition and not wrong albeit that some where there will exist an official definition.

Wiki has its place and in this case it was a good enough description.

 

[webcraft]

Calls to CG

Was once suddenly left without propulsion while entereing Portpatrick with 25 knots on the nose.

Phoned harbourmaster (no. in pilot book) on mob. - no response. Called on Ch12 - no response.

Called CG on mobile - no response.

Now drifting N at 2.5 knots on the flood tide. Options are beating round the Mull of Galloway in the dark with a bad (F8) forecast or retreating to Irvine and sailing into a harbour I have never been in before in the dark with two inexperienced crew.

I called the CG on CH16 to ask if they could arrange a tow from a local boat, and they sent the lifeboat with no further discussion. Not a Pan Pan, just a call on 16.

I was mortified and would NEVER call the CG again in such circumstances. I was in charge of a sailing vessel whose primary methods of propulsion and steering were undamaged, and should have been able to get myself out of the situation without outside assistance.

No vessel safely anchored should EVER put out a distress or urgency call under any circumstances other than a medical emergency. Unless there are mitigating circumstances we are unaware of these people should be shot and their boat confiscated and sold with proceeds to the RNLI..

- W

 

[bedouin]

The decision to put out a PanPan or Mayday is solely that of the skipper. Only he knows the details of the situation, which includes the capability of the boat and the crew. Provided that the skipper understands the definitions then I would never criticise anyone for deciding that the situation justified a PanPan (or not of course).

So in Webcraft's situation I would have been happy to call PanPan. He clearly couldn't make it into his preferred destination without assistance, and was not entirely happy with either of the alternatives with a worsening weather forecast. If the skipper feels that he cannot guarantee the safety of his boat without external assistance that would seem to justify Pan-Pan.

As for asking the Lifeboat to respond - if the CG and RNLI are happy then why should we complain. Both CG and RNLI felt that it was appropriate to respond, so there is not really a problem. I should think most crews welcome the occasional shout. After all if they only launched to genuinely life-threatening situations then there would be precious few launches.

 

[RIB_imposter]

Was once suddenly left without propulsion while entereing Portpatrick with 25 knots on the nose.

Phoned harbourmaster (no. in pilot book) on mob. - no response. Called on Ch12 - no response.

Called CG on mobile - no response.

Now drifting N at 2.5 knots on the flood tide. Options are beating round the Mull of Galloway in the dark with a bad (F8) forecast or retreating to Irvine and sailing into a harbour I have never been in before in the dark with two inexperienced crew.

I called the CG on CH16 to ask if they could arrange a tow from a local boat, and they sent the lifeboat with no further discussion. Not a Pan Pan, just a call on 16.

I was mortified and would NEVER call the CG again in such circumstances. I was in charge of a sailing vessel whose primary methods of propulsion and steering were undamaged, and should have been able to get myself out of the situation without outside assistance.

But if you had put out a DSC urgency call, "a local boat" in the area could have offered a tow. I'm not sure what you expected to happen if you ask the CG to organise a tow.

No vessel safely anchored should EVER put out a distress or urgency call under any circumstances other than a medical emergency. Unless there are mitigating circumstances we are unaware of these people should be shot and their boat confiscated and sold with proceeds to the RNLI..

the mitigating circumstances are clearly in the thread... or perhaps that means that they weren't safely anchored (or at least had no safe means to ever leave the anchorage!)... I'm not sure why the proceeds would go to the RNLI since it wasn't their boat that came to help! Presumably fire, sinking, man overboard at anchor are acceptable reasons for a mayday too!

 

[snowleopard]

But if you had put out a DSC urgency call, "a local boat" in the area could have offered a tow. I'm not sure what you expected to happen if you ask the CG to organise a tow.

I frequently hear calls from the CG along the lines of 'Any vessel in the vicinity of xxxxx able to assist.....'

 

[awol]

....Now drifting N at 2.5 knots on the flood tide. Options are beating round the Mull of Galloway in the dark with a bad (F8) forecast or retreating to Irvine and sailing into a harbour I have never been in before in the dark with two inexperienced crew.

Aw, come on Nick, you had a wheen more options than Irvine - why Irvine, fur goad's sake? A wee reach across to Bangor would have got you out of trouble and C'toon would have been downwind.

You do highlight the problem though that if you feel you need a tow, and are even prepared to pay for it, there is no easy way of arranging it other than via the CG and it seems that once they start on a "rescue" there's no way of stopping them. Sometimes Clyde does a "any vessels in the vicinity of ..." but otherwise you are likely to end up with an orange boat alongside.

As for shooting the "pan-pan" perpetrators - probably a good idea at 03.00 but in the cold light of day I would recommend clemency.

 

[curve]

Presumably fire, sinking, man overboard at anchor are acceptable reasons for a mayday too!

Would you really send out a mayday if somebody fell overboard whilst you were at anchor?

 

[jonjo]

Would you really send out a mayday if somebody fell overboard whilst you were at anchor?

Sure.

River anchorage, at night, strong ebb tide current, dinghy not ready to launch.

All the ingredients there for a full-on Mayday.

 

[RIB_imposter]

I frequently hear calls from the CG along the lines of 'Any vessel in the vicinity of xxxxx able to assist.....'

Yes - but they have probably scrambled the lifeboat too (or at least spoken to the launching authority).

There are disadvantages to using any old boat too - as the CG have no idea about the competence, experience or equipment on board. Worst case they end up with two boats in trouble. If it is too tricky to sail in with the conditions then then probably means you need a tow from someone who knows what they are doing. If there was someone nearby then the caller could always contact them direct or via an "all ships" message.

You do highlight the problem though that if you feel you need a tow, and are even prepared to pay for it, there is no easy way of arranging it other than via the CG and it seems that once they start on a "rescue" there's no way of stopping them. Sometimes Clyde does a "any vessels in the vicinity of ..." but otherwise you are likely to end up with an orange boat alongside.

On the south coast you can of course get a tow from Sea Start (as a member). There are similar services operating in the upper clyde (from Arran north?). If it is "planned" (i.e. you know in advance) then of course there are other options like the harbour master or his contacts. But if your at the entrance the harbour when you spot/develop the problem then this has the potential to unfold into a proper drama! We've all read the near miss articles in the magazines and the MAIB reports where one small problem combines with another and a chain of events unfolds. The CG are expected to make decisions on this with probably very limited knowledge of your expertise or resources on board. If they waste half an hour trying to find you a tow and in that time you run aground, or into other difficulties then they have a real problem to deal with and get criticised for not intervening sooner. Meanwhile the lifeboat crew are getting frustrated that they never get called out for real jobs and spend all their life training.

As a comparison in a non-boating world. A friend of mine recently moved into a new house, a few weeks later the washing machine (which came with the house) started to smoke. She turned off the power, but decided to call the local fire brigade's non-emergency helpline for advice on what to do - the kitchen was full of smoke, the washing machine wasn't obviously on fire, but was too big to move on her own to investigate. She didn't consider this an emergency and didn't call 999. She was extremely embarrassed to find a few minutes later two fire engines at her door with blues and twos going. By the time they arrived the smoke was already clearing and clearly this wasn't going to be headline news. She apologised to the firemen for calling them out needlessly - they said they would much rather be called out (to disconnect the plumbing and electrics for the washing machine and carry it outside) than turn out half an hour later to a full kitchen fire or during the night to a housefire with fatalities. I think the same principle applies.

 

[RIB_imposter]

Would you really send out a mayday if somebody fell overboard whilst you were at anchor?

Depends on the conditions, how quickly I think I can weigh anchor and get to them, if they are wearing a l/jacket, will I be able to get them back aboard, the experience of the other people on board at boat handling etc. But I can imagine many scenarios where it would warrant it. I'm not saying every case justifies it - but the fact that a number of people die or have to be rescued every year in exactly this sort of circumstance then I wouldn't criticise anyone who made a Mayday for a man overboard.

 

[jonjo]

Hmm, interesting online debating technique. Tell me my post is "utter rubbish" and then in a long reply you make a range of statements, half of which I agree with!

By the way I'm also a prolific leisure sailor!

Many of your colleagues on the Solent 16 VHF comedy channel plainly are not.

When an incident starts we gather information that we use to asses and assist with the incident, this is added to a computer program we use that help us track incidents

So you confirm that you do have computerized indecent management systems, as I guess the other emergency call centers have. You admit to routine information gathering which is punched into a computer.

Now I find it hard to picture such a computer system that does not allow a junior CG operative to jump to a reminder screen with canned suggested responses.

With broken or otherwise disabled vessels it is very often (although not always) advisable to anchor if possible

"advisable". Solent CG often provide this as something between advice and an instruction. When I overhear an incident on Solent 16 I often wait for the joke bit about anchoring which is provided regardless of weather, strong tidal current or the depth at the vessel's location.

All staff in the ops rooms are highly trained

And Tesco would make the same claim about their checkout staff. This is the wrong forum for corporate speak.

The sad truth is the UK Coast Guard has lost its way as an institution. You retreated from a direct coastal overwatch function in the name of efficiency but now we are left with the half way house of a pseudo local radio service.

The 2008 work to rule only served to confirm that the CG has an inefficient structure. Yet despite oodles of free time you lot cannot be arsed to issue half decent weather forecasts with actual current conditions, infact the UK CG probably issue the wrost weather forecasts in the north of Europe.

In addition to this I often hear unproffesional office banter over the top of weather bulletins from Solent CG.

Solent CG has been broadcasting audibly fuzzy weather bulletins for a couple of years and only through the endeavors of a forumite here did we discover that Solent CG does not routinely check the basic technical quality of its broadcasts except channel 16.

It is time to accept the true nature of UK Coast Guard's minimal function, radio service today and to deliver this basic service as efficiently as possible. The CoastGuard services of Solent, Portland and Brixham could be delivered from a call center in Dorchester with no loss of service.

What we have today is a poorly planned historical accident with poorly paid and under utilized dispirited staff.

 

[curve]

Depends on the conditions, how quickly I think I can weigh anchor and get to them, if they are wearing a l/jacket, will I be able to get them back aboard, the experience of the other people on board at boat handling etc. But I can imagine many scenarios where it would warrant it. I'm not saying every case justifies it - but the fact that a number of people die or have to be rescued every year in exactly this sort of circumstance then I wouldn't criticise anyone who made a Mayday for a man overboard.

So what we are basically saying is that there a multitude of situations where a mayday is required and nobody should really be chatised for making their own judgement call.

 

[RIB_imposter]

So what we are basically saying is that there a multitude of situations where a mayday is required and nobody should really be chatised for making their own judgement call.

exactly