windward sailing

[Violetta]

Come on!

There are lots of different reasons to own a sailing yacht - not just one. There are also a lot of "oughts" in the world, without adding more. Why can't we all just allow each other to enjoy our different boats for our different purposes in our different ways, without the eternal, underlying implication - "my way is best - why aren't you more like me"????

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[Jacket]

But look at the figures. Off the wind, I passage plan on 5 knots, and regularly avarage just under 6.

Beating, my velocity made good to windward is at best 3 knots in flat water, and 2 knots or less if there's nuch of a chop.

Its a long time since I did the trip, but plymouth- fowey's what, about 25miles, plus another 5 to get down the Tamar if you're moored up there. So if you're running down to Fowey, its a six hour trip, so not a problem. But if you're beating its at least 10 hours, often more. If it the saturday and I'm heading there, not a problem, but on a Sunday, not really sensible- it would be gone midnight by the time I'd driven home.

OK, so I could have looked at the forecast and headed the other way, but often there's a good reason for heading to a certain destination. maybe you're meeting friends who are sailing up from falmouth, or you've got friends on board who've not been to Fowey and want to visit. or maybe the kids like it there.

Boats have engines. So it seems silly not to use them in the situations where they can allow you to have a better weekend.



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[Chris_Robb]

You missed one very good point made by Jacket - people just do not have the time.

I too keep my boat in Plymouth - we have a 4 hour drive to get there, and therefore have to consider what time we leave to come home Sunday evening.

It also depends on the sailing abaility - My boat tacks through 120 degrees so if Plymouth is dead upwind I will motor. If I can make it in one tack than I will sail - provided the wind over deck is over 15 knots. If it is only 10 knots - I will take too long.

The other factor - and one vital to many in the continued ownership of their boat - is that they have to consider their wives - and many just do not enjoy a long slog to windward.

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[clyst]

Re: Come on!

My comments are from observations only ! I'm not saying my way is best just asking why people dont sail to windward to which many posts explain why which is whats its all about init??
cheers

TERRY


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[clyst]

Re: Come on!

Agree but the main reason is to sail . I'm not saying my way is best my comments are from observations whilst sailing and just asking why so many people dont sail to windward . many posts in response explain why .------Which is what its all about init ??

Cheers

Terry

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[Cornishman]

I have read all the answers to your interesting question, and also seemed to have provoked one or two into accusing me of making a 'ridiculous statement'. I get the impression that the spirit of cruising under sail has altered considerably in the last 50 years or so since the end of WW2. I began in 1955 when people just did not have to get back to the office on a Monday morning. Here I agree with the TUC in complaining about the long hours we Brits put in at work. Men who were married took their wives to sea with them, and those that weren't probably never did 'cos they couldn't find a seawife.
My point is, as others have said, that if you have to motor in order to get somewhere at a pre-ordained time for whatever reason BUY A MOTOR BOAT. If you enjoy sailing then plan your passages around not having to go to windward if you don't like it.
I cannot think of anything more uncomfortable than motoring a sailing yacht into the eye of the wind and the oncoming seas. At least sailing to windward you are more likely to be at about 45 degrees or even more to both.
Please note that I am not criticising those who use their yachts in any way they like, just remarking upon the practicalities of some of the things that they do.
As Plymouth has featured here a lot I think I can claim to have sailed out the port more often than most - 11 years teaching seamanship to MN cadets saw to that. Rarely did I have to beat my way home after a long weekend because we put in the windward leg first which usually meant down to Fowey on Day 1 in time to hear bell ringing practice at St Fimbarrus Church on a Friday evening after leaving Plymouth around 1400 hrs in a Moody 33. Careful study of the met situation helped, too. Falmouth or Helford on Day2 was followed by a reach or run home on Day 3
And after 11 years of teaching the subject I venture to suggest that the endless necessity of motoring against the wind in a vessel not designed for it is bad seamanship.

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[SimonD]

Re: Come on!

My problem this season is not avoiding beating to windward, it's finding any wind in the first place!

I'm a bit surprised the motorsailer owning fraternity haven't joined in. On paper they seem the ideal compromise to finding the balance between enjoying sailing when there's wind and getting there at a reasonable speed when there isn't (or its coming from the wrong direction). I'm just curious - do they fall between two stools?

Simon

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[Jacket]

<that if you have to motor in order to get somewhere at a pre-ordained time for whatever reason BUY A MOTOR BOAT.>

But why, when modern yachts make as efficient motor boats as most dedicated displacement motor boats.

If you buy a yacht, you can sail when you want to, and have a motor boat when you need one.

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[qsiv]

By eck! If we are on passage with a destination in mind, my cut off is 5 knots... At least last weekend we never dropped below 8, and peaked at 10.5. What was better was the wind was on the beam nearly the whole time, between 35 and 16 knots. Just nice.

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[clyst]

Modern yachts make efficient motor boats as most dedicated motor boats???????
Modern yachts are designed to be SAILED efficiently. no one would design a sea going displacement motor boat with high free board, wide beam, shallow (excluding keel configuration) saucer under water frofile with a folding prop (or would they some will prove me wrong nodoubt) can't think of a more unsea kindly shape when motoring in anything of a chop! Lots of slamming i think.

Cheers
Terry

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[Badger]

Idle Burgers and time

This links very nicely to the other post "Sailing an old man's sport".In my yacht club I am at least 25 years younger than the mainstream and still paddling my work canoe against the tide.Most of them are now idle burgers having taken early retirement on final salary pensions.If the wind is in the wrong direction they just come back on Monday or Tuesday.For us poor sod's we have to get back to keep working, to get the money to keep sailing we have no choice.Time is not on our side.We sail everywhere and everytime we can but sometimes we have no choice.Also my pension is worth nothing so this looks like it will carry on.So enjoy your mid week sailing but don't torture as anymore, we have little choice.And don't forget some of us are really good sailors as well.

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[webcraft]

Faced with a dead noser (is it ever anything else?) the very large majority of boats will make better progress direct to destination under engine, than tacking under sail.

Hmmm . . . kind of depends on displacement and sea state as well. Lighter boats with smaller engines motoring into steep seas may well get stopped in their tracks by every second wave. I sometimes motor-sail to get the extra drive needed to cope with this (27ft Albin Vega, 10HP Volvo) - but am reluctant to do it for long because large angles of heel can compromise the oil circulation. Tacking through 90deg, I can usually make the same or better progress to windward in a stiff blow with associated sea state under sail than I can under engine, although in smooth water the engine is the best option.

I do however take the point someone else has made about baggy rr genoas making for poor windward progress. I always hold onto the full genoa for as long as possible, puttin two reefs in the main before even thinking of rolling any of the genny away.

Motoring to windward is noisy and uncomfortable if there's a sea running - but it's your boat, you can do what you want . . . so long as it's not because you're scared of the sails. I've seen a lot of people motoring DOWNWIND in a stiff breeze recently, and that really makes me wonder.

- Nick

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[Jacket]

Poor wording. Should have said ergonomically efficient(?), or something similar.

Yes, they're no where near as efficient from a hydrodynamic point of view. What I meant is that they easily motor at hull speed, have quiet engines and pleanty of space and comfort down below. Bar an enclosed wheelhouse they've got just about everything that someone wants from a displacement motorboat, with the added benefit of being able to sail.

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[Twister_Ken]

Oh no they haven\'t!

>Bar an enclosed wheelhouse they've got just about everything that someone wants from a displacement motorboat<

Make that an enclosed wheelhouse, aircon, deep freeze, shag pile carpets, patio doors, garden furniture, a spare engine, marble bathroom, fender baskets and paintings on the walls.

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[tcm]

Re: ahem

There seems to be the occasional implication that people on motorboats some how aren't real sailors, and don't take boating seriously. Why is this?

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[claymore]

Re: Oh no they haven\'t!

So when did you come aboard Claymore? For my three pennyworth - I like having a semi enclosed wheelhouse - it keeps us warmer in the winter and cooler in the summer. Sailing off the West Coast it also keeps us drier. We can stay out sailing for a long time as we are not exposed to the energy drain from sitting out in an open cockpit. Its probably cheaper as we don't need to own expensive breathable deep sea waterproofs - just a couple of pacamacs. Claymore loves sailing on a reach or a run but is less happy going upwind - this suits Dear Heart and I fine as we feel the same. I often see boats thrashing upwind and its a grand sight and I enjoy watching them. Sailing is one of those activities in which we can choose how we like to do it. I don't see myself as the Child of a lesser God because I prefer not to beat slowly to windward for hours on end. Nor do I see those who are doing so as purists or proper sailors - just someone else out, probably having as much pleasure doing what they are doing as we are.

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Claymore
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[Gunfleet]

Re: ahem

Are those chewing gum spots on the floor?

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[jimi]

Re: ahem

Nah its TCM's marbles ..

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[Gunfleet]

Re: ahem

And if the crew are waving down his helicopter they'd better get out on deck

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[Cornishman]

Re: Oh no they haven\'t!

Ken, you forgot the cocktail bar c/w miniskirted and fishnet nyloned waitress, widescreen TV set, DVD player, VCR, and home theatre setup with surround sound. I like the sound of piles of shag on the carpet, tho'.

Do you think this is where Charlie Dimmock got her ideas for decking?

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