Windlass troubleshooting

Sea Change

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Doesn't it seem likely that there is some kind of short? Surely the up and down supplies should be separate? At the moment they both fall to zero when the relay is triggered, regardless of which side you trigger.
 

Sea Change

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It's got to be the motor.
I've used jump leads to put 13.2v directly on to the motor terminals and there's absolutely nothing. No spark, no movement. Even bypassed the breaker.
Fortunately I do have an entire spare windlass in storage, but it's got the wrong size gypsy and swapping them won't be easy because the stripper arm bolts are seized.
But I guess I could swap the motors out instead. I wonder which one will be less work?
They're both Tigres btw. I would prefer the one in storage as it's in better nick overall.
 

Sea Change

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So... if I whack the motor casing lightly with a hammer, I can get it to run, directly off the jump leads.
I can't get the brushes out to clean them, so I might dig out the other windlass and swap the motors over.
 

Neeves

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I don't understand why swapping the windlass, the part with the gypsy, makes any difference the electrics are all separate, you have a motor and a solenoid, or 2 of each (and the 'windlass with gypsy', again 2 off). Swap the motor and separately swap the solenoids - check any circuit breakers

If you have another windlass all connected together wire it up to THE battery or a battery, so using different cables - and try it. Make sure it does run. Swap each of the electrical components, motor, solenoid from windlass 1 to windlass 2. Remove circuit breaker (if you have a spare swap it with the one in use).

You should be able to test the 2 motors independent of the solenoid and independent of the circuit breaker as long as you have some spare cable with the ends swaged on.

The only downside I can think of is if both windlass have the same electrical fault - solenoids are (in my experience) unreliable.

Jonathan
 

salar

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So... if I whack the motor casing lightly with a hammer, I can get it to run, directly off the jump leads.
I can't get the brushes out to clean them, so I might dig out the other windlass and swap the motors over.

Sounds like stuck motor brushes. I had the exact same problem. A simple fix: find the brush access screws, could be four, the brushes will pull out. Gently sand the sides until you can slide them in and out easily. If the brushes are kaput you can get a replacement set or there are places that will make a set to your measurements for less.
 

Sea Change

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Sounds like stuck motor brushes. I had the exact same problem. A simple fix: find the brush access screws, could be four, the brushes will pull out. Gently sand the sides until you can slide them in and out easily. If the brushes are kaput you can get a replacement set or there are places that will make a set to your measurements for less.
That would be great if I could then to move at all. They're absolutely solid. Can't get one out, let alone all of them.

So on to my next option: swap the entire windlass with the spare Tigres I have. It's got a 10mm gypsy and I need to put the 12mm one on.
I've managed to remove the stripper arms from both windlasses, but unfortunately in the case of the one I want to use, both bolts sheared off. So I'm going to have to get creative with re-attaching the stripper.
Anyway, I've got the nut, outer cone, and chain grabber thingy off, but on neither windlass can I remove the final part. Am I missing a trick, does the shaft key have to come out? Or do I just apply more force?

Hope all that makes sense.
 

Sea Change

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I don't understand why swapping the windlass, the part with the gypsy, makes any difference the electrics are all separate, you have a motor and a solenoid, or 2 of each (and the 'windlass with gypsy', again 2 off). Swap the motor and separately swap the solenoids - check any circuit breakers

If you have another windlass all connected together wire it up to THE battery or a battery, so using different cables - and try it. Make sure it does run. Swap each of the electrical components, motor, solenoid from windlass 1 to windlass 2. Remove circuit breaker (if you have a spare swap it with the one in use).

You should be able to test the 2 motors independent of the solenoid and independent of the circuit breaker as long as you have some spare cable with the ends swaged on.

The only downside I can think of is if both windlass have the same electrical fault - solenoids are (in my experience) unreliable.

Jonathan
I've narrowed the fault down to the motor on the 'in use' windlass so there's no need to go troubleshooting.

Now it's a question of trying to cobble together one working windlass from the two I have, navigating various seized bolts etc.
 

Neeves

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I've narrowed the fault down to the motor on the 'in use' windlass so there's no need to go troubleshooting.

Now it's a question of trying to cobble together one working windlass from the two I have, navigating various seized bolts etc.
I don't know where you are - but a decent vice, a solid work bench and a bench drill would be handy (at a pinch a B&D Workmate might suffice). The other essential is patience.

Seized windlass studs and bolts is a repetitive topic for forum threads (there was a thread a few days ago on corroded bolts in aluminium). The usual issue is stainless bolts in an aluminium casting and the product of corrosion is aluminium oxide - which is effectively inert. The only hope is use heat, soldering iron or blow torch on the bolt or stud, and hope that differential expansion will 'break' the connection/corrossion. You can also try WD40 but it will only be effective if you 'break' the aluminium oxide that is 'sealing' the thread. So lots of heat, lots of patience and when its cooled down try WD40, or any oil. What usually happens, frustration takes over and the bolts shear. You might then be able to drill the bolt out - but it really needs to be on a bench with a decent bench drill.

I think I recall you saying you had problem removing the gypsy - it should simply lift out - a gear puller might be the answer (and, again, WD40 or any oil soaked into the interface of shaft and gypsy. If you can remove the shaft with the gypsy 'locked' in you can tap, tap, tap the gypsy with a rubber/wooden mallet - it sometimes works. Again a decent bench (oil the shaft/gypsy interface, soak, and lots of patience).

Having 2 windlass - you might get lucky and be able to build one working from the 2 units. If you need to drill out the bolts (or studs) you will need to make new threads you need a tap set) and you will need new matching bolts.

Usually when I'm involved with windlass I carry an angle grinder (and Duralac) - its the last resort - cut the old windlass out and replace with a new one. So chop up the corroded windlass so that it can be removed minimising damage to the fibre glass (to which the windlass is attached), you then can instal the new, or working, windlass in the same location as the old. Before you instal the new, or replacement windlass - take it apart and coat all the bolts with Duralac.

Jonathan
 

Sea Change

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I'm currently at anchor in 35ft of water, so it's a bit annoying that my troubleshooting has led me to a point where I don't currently have any sort of a working windlass, manual or otherwise. Not going to bed until I have at least manual mode back. At this depth the 12mm chain and 25kg anchor are at the limit of what I can lift by hand.

Progress so far: I've managed to swap the motor across; that turned out to be easier than either accessing the brushes on the duff motor, or swapping the gypsies around. Turns out the part I cannot remove is called the inner clutch cone.
Just to add to the fun, when I removed the motor it unexpectedly took the shaft with it, and all the gearbox oil dumped itself into my anchor locker. So I'm doing all this by head torch whilst everything is liberally coated in EP90 gear oil. Lovely.

I guess there has to be a downside to this cruising lark...
 

OCuea

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I don't know where you are - but a decent vice, a solid work bench and a bench drill would be handy (at a pinch a B&D Workmate might suffice). The other essential is patience.

Seized windlass studs and bolts is a repetitive topic for forum threads (there was a thread a few days ago on corroded bolts in aluminium). The usual issue is stainless bolts in an aluminium casting and the product of corrosion is aluminium oxide - which is effectively inert. The only hope is use heat, soldering iron or blow torch on the bolt or stud, and hope that differential expansion will 'break' the connection/corrossion. You can also try WD40 but it will only be effective if you 'break' the aluminium oxide that is 'sealing' the thread. So lots of heat, lots of patience and when its cooled down try WD40, or any oil. What usually happens, frustration takes over and the bolts shear. You might then be able to drill the bolt out - but it really needs to be on a bench with a decent bench drill.

I think I recall you saying you had problem removing the gypsy - it should simply lift out - a gear puller might be the answer (and, again, WD40 or any oil soaked into the interface of shaft and gypsy. If you can remove the shaft with the gypsy 'locked' in you can tap, tap, tap the gypsy with a rubber/wooden mallet - it sometimes works. Again a decent bench (oil the shaft/gypsy interface, soak, and lots of patience).

Having 2 windlass - you might get lucky and be able to build one working from the 2 units. If you need to drill out the bolts (or studs) you will need to make new threads you need a tap set) and you will need new matching bolts.

Usually when I'm involved with windlass I carry an angle grinder (and Duralac) - its the last resort - cut the old windlass out and replace with a new one. So chop up the corroded windlass so that it can be removed minimising damage to the fibre glass (to which the windlass is attached), you then can instal the new, or working, windlass in the same location as the old. Before you instal the new, or replacement windlass - take it apart and coat all the bolts with Duralac.

Jonathan
Would not a weak acid reduce the aluminium corrosion hopefully allowing space for bolts to be undone - I used use acetic acid ( vinegar) but citric acid in jam making is a little stronger - no need to use HCL or sulduric which would probably destroy any aluminium left - what do you think?
 

Neeves

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Would not a weak acid reduce the aluminium corrosion hopefully allowing space for bolts to be undone - I used use acetic acid ( vinegar) but citric acid in jam making is a little stronger - no need to use HCL or sulduric which would probably destroy any aluminium left - what do you think?
You would need hot concentrated acid, hydrofluoric, sulphuric, or hydro chloric acids to impact aluminium oxide and I would not recommend anyone touch any of these outside a fume cabinet and wearing full protective clothing, goggles and heavy duty gloves. So you are right but NOT recommended, not even contemplated.

Part of the remedy is to find a way of releasing the adhesion caused by the aluminium oxide without destroying the item.

Heat 'simply' will, in theory, release the bolts due to different thermal expansion but in practice..... theory and practice are not always the same :)

The answer is simple - windlass makers should package their windlass with the bolts already coated with Duralac (or similar ; Tefgel?) and should mention the correct application of Duralac for their equipment in their users manual. Similarly when a yacht is commissioned a check should be made that Duralac has been used. To underline the message a small container of Duralac/Tefgel, like those tiny tubes of toothpaste that were given in every comfort pack on planes, or those single serve soy sauce bottles supplied with wasabi, would hardly break the budget.

Hope springs eternal

Windlass makers know perfectly well the environment in which the device is used - it might be suggested that in the absence of Duralac, etc - the equipment is not of marketable quality. Duralac is not the most healthy of concoctions - but Tefgel is a more than adequate, safer, option

Repetitive threads on the issue are commonplace - there really is no excuse (except that it provides regular income to windlass manufacturers - and that is not an excuse but might be the reason). One should never guess but I suspect that more windlass are condemned as a result of corrosion at aluminium/stainless bolt interfaces than for any there reason. Further the life expectancy of windlass is probably one of the lowest for most equipment on a yacht, maybe second to anchor chain......and the remedy is simple.

Jonathan
 
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