Windlass cable

[macd]

I intended no offence, but your question was whether 'regular domestic' T&E was suitable and, as another poster observed, regular domestic cable is 2.5mm2, single core and very much not suitable. I can now see you were already aware of this, but it was far from apparent from your original post.
That said, I offered you the recomendation of a leading UK windlass supplier, which you can take or leave. If £4 a metre for welding cable busts the bank (and yes, I do know how to seal the ends but thanks for the offer), you must have got a helluva deal on the windlass.

 

[Anthony]

Hi,

I cant think of no obvious reason why T+E wouldnt work, the 'e' bit is obviously irrelevent in this instance, so that just leaves double insulated cable. I do not know the composition of the insulation, or how it would react to oil / fuel / heat or fire etc, so if you go that way then thats just a risk you would take. However I think you will find that even the multistranded T+E is likly to be stiff compared to battery cable, that may make it difficult to man handle compared to regular cable.

As price is obviously a key factor to you here it might be worth you shopping around, as regular (untinned) multistrand 10mm2 cable is not that expensive (feel free to PM me if you want with the sort of prices you have been quoted so far and I will see if I can do it any cheaper).

Good luck,

Anthony

 

[sailinglegend420]

One point everyone seems to have overlooked is the cost and hassle of replacing the cable maybe several times over the life of the boat. Not so bad if you can do the job yourself. If you choose the best tinned cable it will last a lifetime.

And when it does fail its always when you need it - and that could cause you problems. You pays your money and makes your choice.

 

[macd]

Morning, Flichobay. Wrote my last post on returning from the pub. Having slept on your conundrum, I can now offer the following solution:
1. Use the cheapest, nastiest T&E your can find.
2. Remove all sources of resonant vibration from the boat.
3.Tie up permanently to a marina berth (this is perhaps easiest accomplished before '2', since you will by now have no engine).
4. See '1'. Remove all wiring and replace with regular domestic T&E since your boat is effectively now a house.
5. Remove and sell windlass, which is now surplus to your requirements.

Slightly more seriously, I know exactly where you are coming from in questioning the 'regulation' way of doing things. Nothing wrong with that. However, I'd suggest that individual anecdotal evidence, as contained in some posts above, has no more place in a soundly reasoned argument than 'I wasn't wearing a seat belt but I was OK'.
Now I'll give you my 'through the windscreen' experiences:
I bought my first boat from a chap 'fully qualified' in electrickery (he was a domestic sparks and clearly also fond of thinking 'outside the box', especially if it saved money). The boat was riddled (apologies for the perjorative expression) with single core T&E. None of it ever fractured, despite the presence of a very vibey diesel Volvo single. It also appeared highly resistant to corrosion with oxides of copper, which was more than could be said of some of the pukka marine tinned cable I later installed (the boat, I should say, was rather wetter than the one I have now). Despite this, I still use tinned marine cable out of choice -- except in the case of the aforementioned windlass cable, where my cost-induced reasoning was that welding cable with tinned and sealed ends would be well up to the job -- and that was the professional advise I received. (In the case of a high-drain installation such as a windlass, it's worth observing that there are also insurance implications. Anything asked to deliver 80 amps-plus is obviously a significant potential fire risk, so short-cuts, however well reasoned, might be (note: not 'ought to be') best avoided if you want to maintain your cover.)
You did yourself no favours in your 'it won't work' choice of words. Merely 'working', as I'm sure you'll admit, isn't half the issue. Fencing wire would 'work'. However I do think there is room here for a reasoned debate about boat wiring in general. My two penn'orth, for what it's worth: tinned marine multistrand is by no means immune to corrosion. Tinned ends (i.e. with the application of solder, and as opposed to crimped ends) are advised against by many, including Calder in his supposed boat owner's bible, yet tinning certainly resists corrosion and I've had non-tinned ends spontaineously fracture. Anecdotal experience times some largish number = real evidence. Discuss.

 

[christoph]

For Anthony - Many thanks again for your well reasoned input. As you say - 'I can think of no obvious reason why T+E wouldnt work', That is the whole point at issue, and I agree. I accept your point that T&E is stiffer than the alternatives. All this came about when aformensioned electrician suggested it to me. I hadn't given it the slightest thought until he came up with it - and it got me thinking. I assumed - and this was the whole point of asking the question in the first place - that there must be a solid technical reason why T&E of suitable C/S can't be used. I think we all accept that tinned marine cable is the best choice by far but I will probably use 10mm2 multistrand welding or battery cable. Thanks for the offer of priceing said cable but I must confess I haven't looked at the price yet. I did, however call up our local electrical wholesalers and they quoted £1.89 +vat per metre for the 10mm2 and £2.75+vat per metre for the 16mm2 T&E. And, of course you only need a single run! Many thanks.

 

[geoffatstanpit]

I've heard it said that solder "creeps". I used to tin the ends of wires to be connected up with chocolate block connectors and they certainly didn't seem to be as reliable as plain copper multistrand twisted and doubled back. After a year or so they went dodgy but recovered when retightened which could be due to some kind of long-term squashability.

 

[sailinglegend420]

[ QUOTE ]
I did, however call up our local electrical wholesalers and they quoted £1.89 +vat per metre for the 10mm2

[/ QUOTE ]

10mm2 is NOT the same as 10mm cross section - which is a cross sectional area of 70mm2 - a big difference in the current rating and in the price.

 

[christoph]

sailinglegend420 '10mm2 is NOT the same as 10mm cross section - which is a cross sectional area of 70mm2 - a big difference in the current rating and in the price'.

Thanks for that but we are talking C/S area NOT diameter. And cable and wire is listed and sold in 1.5 - 2.5 - 10 - 16mm2 etc etc, by the wholesalers.

 

[christoph]

geoffatstanpit
'I've heard it said that solder "creeps". I used to tin the ends of wires to be connected up with chocolate block connectors and they certainly didn't seem to be as reliable as plain copper multistrand twisted and doubled back. After a year or so they went dodgy but recovered when retightened which could be due to some kind of long-term squashability'.

Yes I've known this, after a while the cable or wires need tightening up but this seems to occur if the cable is soldered or not.

 

[sailinglegend420]

In your first post you talked about 10mm cross section. If you see my earlier post on AWG tables you see that for a 30 ft run to the windlass (15 ft there and 15 feet back)you need an AWG 2/0 sized cable. If you look at this thread the table shows that an AWG 2/0 cable is 70 sq mm - thats 10mm cross section or diameter.

If you use 2.5 sq mm the windlass may not work and you may eventually set fire to the boat. Its all about a high current passing through a small cable which has a resistance that causes a large voltage drop. A 2.5 volts drop with 100 amps equals 250 watts of heat dissapated in the cable

If you only have 10 volts at the windlass end then you could also damage the windlass motor.

We all spend considerable time reading/learning and posting on these forums, and there is a lot of useful info - please try and understand just what people are telling - not want you want to hear.

 

[christoph]

To sailinglegend420

(quote - thats 10mm cross section or diameter.)

To the best of my knowledge nobody has suggested using cable of 2.5mm2 least of all me. I can only quote the requirements given by the windlass manufacturer in its user and intallation manual - I quote :- ('Use 75 AMP rating cable or 8 AWG or electric cable with a cross section C/S 7.91mm2 or larger'). This is a direct transcript.

I would also like to point out that the cross section of a material is NOT the same as the diameter. A 10mm diameter cable is equal to about 70mm2 as you say but the manufacturers are stateing 7.91mm2 or larger not 70mm2. I rounded this up to the readily available 10mm2. The small length of cable supplied by the manufacturer, eg, from the windlass to the control box and cut out is about 10mm2 and certainly not 70mm2. Many thanks for your input.

 

[sailinglegend420]

Sorry if I might have misunderstood your determination to use 2.5sq mm cable - but even 10 sq mm will NOT be enough for the whole job.

The small length of cable they supplied will be just OK for cables of less than 5 ft - i.e. from the windlass to the control box. (see the AWG table refered to above) The size of the cable for the rest of the job depends on the length of run from the battery to the windlass - and I am sure that is more than 5 feet! The manufacturer couldn't possibly give a spec for the whole cable unless they know the size of the boat.

The reason for my exhaustive posts is because there is a confusion between cross sectional area in sq mm and cross section or in the case of round cable the diameter in mm. I have seen a professionasl installer confuse a cross section or diameter of a cable needed as 10 sq mm instead of 10mm in cross section. He is in the process of being taken to court because his installation failed.

I would suggest you look at other windlasses that came installed with a boat to see what sized cable has been used.