WightLink

[Guest]

Re: A counter balance

I sail out of Portsmouth harbour, and there are always W/L ferries in sight. Most locals sailors know the track these ferries plough. For those of us who sail as a leisure activity, it is a simple matter of shaping our courses to keep clear of commercial traffic.
I accept that some of the behavior recorded in this posting is unseamanlike, but if yachts keep to the Small Boat Channel or use the inshore passage around Gilkicker they will avoid any close situations with the ferries. In the narrow harbour entrance it is usually necessary and probably obligatory to use an engine, as the wind is invariably fickle between the buildings.

 

[bedouin]

Re: A counter balance

Roger,

I think if you read the posts carefully you will see that the behaviour about which we are complaining happens in open water - well away from the Small Boat Channel, or the Swatchway.

Also those of us who sail fin keeled boats cannot use the small boat channel a lot of the time and so are forced to sail in the same waters as the ferries - especially near low water.

I admit that I am sometimes horrified at the antics of some small boats coming into/out of Portsmouth, but that does not excuse the W/L skippers intimidating yachts in the middle of the Solent. This much either be deliberate or negligent

 

[Aries]

Re: A counter balance

With a Gosport mooring, I am always out amongst the ferry traffic.
Yes, the car ferry's do seem to be getting more agressive. Coming out from Portsmouth they will turn to starboard out of the channel almost regardless of anyone, sailing or power coming in, even when sailing boats are hard on the wind and to starboard of the red bouys. Out of the entrance channel it is a straight line for Fishbourne and it is up to us to keep out of the way it seems, regardless of the wind and weather conditions.
Maybe next year when the traffic builds up again we can keep a log of how they act.
The hovercraft and the yellow catamarans to Ryde seem to be much more friendly and respect that sailing craft cannot always manouver out of their way.

 

[l'escargot]

Re: A counter balance

There have been instances at Fishbourne where the incoming ferry has been operating outside of the channel to allow the outgoing ferry to leave and then they have attempted to intimidate smaller boats in order to re enter the channel, cutting in between the piles. They previously waited at the entrance to the fairway.

The recent LNTM (No 44/02) shows how they seem to want it both ways, saying:

"Mariners are advised that Wightlink vessels may operate outside the
confines of the indicated channel and may also conduct "green to green"
passing operations within the confines of the channel."

and

"In accordance with The International Regulations for Preventing
Collisions at Sea Rule 9, vessels of less than 20 metres in length and
sailing vessels are not to impede the safe passage of vessels which can
safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway."

These attitudes now seem to be extending out into open water.

_____________________________

http://www.wootton-creek.freeserve.co.uk/
or
http://homepages.rya-online.net/wootton-creek/
_____________________________

 

[nicho]

Re: A counter balance

Now that IS interesting!! I'm sure that they are taking the second point too far. Completely unnecessary, totally arrogant and ultimately will lead to casualties.

 

[jmundayuk]

Re: A counter balance

There seems to be an anti ferry lobby here. I will just clarify a few points. Firstly these ferries are Earning their livings and paying for you all to go sailing. You sail for no light dues etc and you are playing. 2) You do not know the bigger picture as to why they are close to you. Is there another ship approaching are they constrained by depth etc. You can be assured they are watching you and a lot of them sail so know. what you will do next

I will also point out these are the most highly desired jobs for masters (They work shifts so go home at night)therefore the ferry companies only get the most highly qualified and experienced who are not reckless fools and have a very big responsibility. Please if you reallly have a positive critism report the ship to the harbourmaster but remember your 30 ft is probably 30 meters in reality.

 

[tome]

Wobbly counter balance

All understood - but your post is a little patronising. Some amongst us have professional seafaring experience and can quite certainly paint the bigger picture to which you refer. If you read the thread properly you will see that the complaints relate to situations where they are specifically not constrained by depth or other shipping.

Neither do I believe there is an anti ferry lobby. I can only speak for myself when I say that for the past 25 years that I've been sailing in the Solent the Wightlink masters have been noted for their outstanding courtesy, until very recently. In another post you will see tributes to the Red Funnel and Wightlink cats as well as the hovercraft operators.

I think we're entitled to air our views and politely suggest that you read the thread again as you seem to have missed the point.

 

[nicho]

Re: A counter balance

This is NOT an anti-ferry thread. Most posters acknowledge that the vast number of ferries in/around the Solent have a difficult job, especially at weekends, and are extremely courteous to the many amateur skippers out on their boats for pleasure.

Several posters have had problems with some skippers on one route only, i.e. Portsmouth - Fishbourne. Pls read the threads thoroughly and you will see that the incidents complained of are mostly NOT in areas of restricted navigation, nor are they at times when other commercial vessels are in the vicinity. It seems the opinion of several, very experienced boatowners on this forum, that one or two (not all) WightLink skippers are navigating over aggressively when it's not necessary to do so. No matter how desirable the job (?) or how experienced they are, one day there will be a collision if they continue in this way. Lets be honest, no one is going to deliberately get themselves run over by one of these things, but some less experienced yachtsmen/women who may have been remiss and not noticed the ferries approach from behind, may be panicked in to making a wrong move if the ferry masters insist on giving them so little room. If as you insist, these Masters have us in view at all times, why do they feel the need to pass so closely, and if the Masters are so professional, why don't they act in such a manner at all times, and show some courtesy to other boat users?

As I, and others have said, these comments seem to apply to just one or two skippers only - and believe me if it happens to me again, I shall take action through the appropriate channels.

As for the Ferries paying for our sailing, well that doesn't really deserve comment!!

 

[Joe_Cole]

Re: A counter balance

So, if a lorry (earning a living and paying far more tax than a car) thunders down the wrong side of the road towards you, you won't object?
He probably has good reason and, of course, you don't know the bigger picture?

See the point?

Regards

Joe

 

[jfm]

Light dues irrelevant

Disagree most strongly

I pay loads in taxes, so the fact I dont pay some tiny amount in light dues is irrelevant. These taxes are not hypothecated, so I have paid for lights and buoys. And I never rely on buoys/lights, would happily see them all scrapped, they're often navigational hazards imho. GPS plotters with multiple back ups has made buoys redundant. These ferries sure as hell do not "pay for me to go sailing"!!

Just because they're making a living doesn't give them special privileges. I make a living during the week and when I sail at weekends I am allowed to expect others to follow colregs, right?

BTW, are you Jeremy?

 

[l'escargot]

Re: A counter balance

I will clarify some points also
Firstly I am not anti ferry - I live on the Isle of Wight and rely on them.
1) Subsequently, I pay for the Ferries on a regular basis, they pay nothing towards my sailing.
2) I do know the bigger picture as to why they are close to me in all circumstances that I quote. Furthermore I am fully aware of the constraints they work under. I can also see if they are watching me or not. Generally their only intention is to make as many crossings as possible to increase profits for shareholders and to cut whatever corners necessary.Very few of the Wightlink crew own boats or sail themselves.
3) The jobs are not generally highly desired. Only a small percentage of highly qualified and experienced skippers want to work shifts or be home at night. The work is generally considered unchallenging and poorly paid compared to bulk carriers or tankers and the like. Wightlink have also recently attempted to remove pension rights from their employees.
4) In Wootton Creek there is no point in reporting ferries to the Harbour Master - Wightlink are the Harbour Master.
What is clear is that Wighlink do behave better when watched. Their behaviour in Lymington is far better under the watchful eye of the Lymington HM and the influential Royal Lymington YC than it is in Wootton Creek where they answer only to themselves.

 

[oldharry]

Re: A counter balance

Please go re read the posts Jmundayuk: None of us are 'Anti Ferry'. All of us are deeply concerned at the antics in open water of certain recently appointed skippers on the Fishbourne run, who will in the near future cause an accident with probably fatal consequences because they do not comply with Colregs in the mid Solent.

When I was subjected to a near miss last year there were no other shipping movements in that part of the Solent. Unusually there were not even any other small craft within a mile or so of our position, and none were on a intersecting course with the ferry. There was definitely not any reason for the ferry not to take avoiding action as he was supposed to under the regulations.

Having been Master of a number of passenger vessels myself, I CAN tell the difference between 30 feet and 30 metres on the water quite accurately, and I DO know from years of first hand experience, the difficulties of operating safely when there are many small private pleasure craft around. Charging at them to force them to move over is NOT an option! Ever.

It is my professional opinion that the Ferry Watch Officer would not have been able to justify actions in my (and apparently many other cases) to an MAIB Board of Enquiry. The way certain of these ferries are being operated presents an unnaceptably high risk of accident and fatalities.

 

[bedouin]

Re: A counter balance

I was initially hesitant in commenting about this incident - thinking it might be a one off. However the evidence from this thread (and others) is that this has become a serious problem in the last few months.

Just to re-assure you. In near-incident I reported happened where there was plenty of water and where the ferry was not constrained by other traffic. The ferry intended to pass about 70-80 feet away, but as soon as it got abeam it took all the wind out of my sails, and I was sucked in by the wash, so I ended up passing far too close to his stern for comfort.

This is not me being anti-ferry. I have tremedous respect for the vast majority of captains who have a difficult time navigating a very busy stretch of water.

If you re-read the posts you will see that these incidents refer almost entirely to the Wightlink car service out of Portsmouth.Given that there are 6 different services operating to the IoW, that is suggestive of a real problem rather than blind prejudice.

 

[Guest]

No good complaining to the new QHM. He is allegedly 'extremely knowledgeable', and does not require any advice from us lot.

 

[l'escargot]

Re: QHM

Who told you this then?

 

[tome]

WightLink Complainst Procedure

I sent an email to MCA requesting the procedure to follow in the event of a complaint, their response follows.

Sir,

Appologies for the delay in replying to your e-mail.

The normal procedure is as follows.

Contact your nearest Coasguard, via radio or telephone. e-mail is also acceptable.

Provide the following information.

A date/time of incident.

B position of incident.

C on scene weather/visibility.

D. Reporting vessel
1. Name/Type/Port of Registry
2. Course/speed
3. Other information (lights/shapes displayed etc.

E. Other vessel
1. Name/Type/Port of Registry
2. Course/speed
3. Next port of call
4. Other information (lights/shapes displayed etc)

F. details of alleged incident

I appreciate that there is a great deal of information required but this would be required should investigation lead to a proscecution.

Additional information can be found in MGN 115. This is available as a free download of our website.

www.mcga.gov.uk. follow the path publications/statutory information/m notices/ mgn.

Your nearest Coastguard is Solent. they can be contacted by telephone on 02392 552100 or by e-mail WM_Solent@mcga.gov.uk

I have also forwarded your e-mail to MRSC Solent.

Regards

Infoline.

 

[peterb]

Re: A counter balance

Operating outside the channel has more significance than you might think. In the case of the Kirsten Skou (1950) it was held that where a permitted or recommended route was indicated by two buoys, but vessels could in safety have gone outside it, the narrow channel rule did not apply to the waters between the buoys. Wightlink may have shot themselves in the foot!

 

[l'escargot]

Have you had a response to your e mail to Wightlink?
Incidentally, the RYA have been down to Fishbourne this week and were not impressed at some of the Wightlink activities, particularly green to green passing in the channel and operations outside of the channel involving cutting back in between the piles (Notice to Mariners or not).
Also the QHM is coming over to the RVYC later in the month and is prepared to listen to specific detailed complaints about their activities.

 

[tome]

No reply from Wightlink (surprise).

Keep us informed re QHM visit, though I think the MCA route is preferable for complaints.