mattman
New Member
I'm thinking about buying an Achilles 7.5 which is a triple keel, any comments on these?
Why so few bilge keel yachts?
- Thread starter Gludy
- Start date
rwoofer
Well-Known Member
For anyone who is interested, I've just got this months PBO and there is a rather nice review of the RM880. Seemed a very fair review to me as they picked up on what I would consider the weakspots. What they do say is that it really does perform and you would never know it was a bilge keeler from the helm.
lenseman
Well-Known Member
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Shouldn't that be a "triple heel"?
jcpa
Well-Known Member
boatmike
Well-Known Member
Regardless of performance,the bilge keel was generally popular on small family cruisers from about the 60s through to the 80s. At that time boat OWNERS were different and wanted boats of up to about 32 ft maximum with 24-26 ft being most popular. The good old Centaur would go anywhere. She was safe, easy to sail, over engineered, and there are still lots of them about. Westerly though, like many other small British boat builders have dissapeared and the market is dominated by Bavaria, Jenneau, Beneteau, etc etc. These guys are simply not concerned with the minority and build what the market wants. Unfortunately the new boat market (unlike the used boat market) is dominated by people who don't want to sit on a drying mooring in a quiet creek eating cheese and pickle sangies and drinking beer. They want a 36-46 ft boat that sits in a marina where they can go ashore to the restaurant and have wine with their lobster....
OK that's a caricature of the market but it's generally true. The bilge keel 26 ft boat only meets a niche market these days and unfortunately that market is a middle/working class family with 2.2 kids that can only afford second hand prices. I didn't see vary many boats under 36 ft at SIBS....
OK that's a caricature of the market but it's generally true. The bilge keel 26 ft boat only meets a niche market these days and unfortunately that market is a middle/working class family with 2.2 kids that can only afford second hand prices. I didn't see vary many boats under 36 ft at SIBS....
BillAU
New Member
Bilge Keel Or Tri?
G'day mates,
I'm a retired seaman but I'm new to sailing and a new member of this forum
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest, I've also been following other threads on other forums, on Ferro yachts and Tri's, I find all boating subjects pretty interesting because I'm thinking of buying a 30ft Ferro Cement Bilge Keel Yacht, just as soon as I can get away to inspect her. This one is a 30' Hartley.
Before being converted to seek a bilge keel ferro mono yacht, I had my heart set on a 36' to 40' Trimaran but, after researching Tri's and Monos (for over 18 months) I have come to believe the 30' FC, Bilge Keel, Hartley will suit my purpose better than any deep keel, fin keel or full keel mono or any Tri. (Tri's have a beam problem as you know) One thing that I'm not sure about with the Hartley, her owner says, she has a draught of only 2' 6”! Now that's a shallow draught! Can anyone advise me on this, is such a shallow draught normal on a 30' Hartley Ferro Bilge Keel yacht?
I plan on using the yacht for easy cruising, “the no rush to get anywhere type of cruising”, between the Hawksbury River, in New South Wales, the Whitsunday's in Queensland and the top end of Australia.
On my travels, I plan on going-up to explore and fish a number of rivers and shallow bays, there will also be quite a few Islands and, hard to get to (unless you have a shallow draught boat or a long range helicopter) remote coves and bays, so I was firmly convinced a Tri was the most suitable boat for my purpose. Then I discovered the 30' FC, Bilge Keels Hartley and after thinking things over for a few weeks, I now believe this Hartley would better suit my needs, more-so than a Tri.
I'll be looking her over later this week or early next week and if she's as the owner says she is, I'll make a serious offer for her and hopefully become her owner.
I would be interested in what you think of my choice of, my first yacht. A 30ft Ferro Cement Bilge Keel Hartley Sloop.
Cheers,
Bill AU
G'day mates,
I'm a retired seaman but I'm new to sailing and a new member of this forum
I have been following this thread with a lot of interest, I've also been following other threads on other forums, on Ferro yachts and Tri's, I find all boating subjects pretty interesting because I'm thinking of buying a 30ft Ferro Cement Bilge Keel Yacht, just as soon as I can get away to inspect her. This one is a 30' Hartley.Before being converted to seek a bilge keel ferro mono yacht, I had my heart set on a 36' to 40' Trimaran but, after researching Tri's and Monos (for over 18 months) I have come to believe the 30' FC, Bilge Keel, Hartley will suit my purpose better than any deep keel, fin keel or full keel mono or any Tri. (Tri's have a beam problem as you know) One thing that I'm not sure about with the Hartley, her owner says, she has a draught of only 2' 6”! Now that's a shallow draught! Can anyone advise me on this, is such a shallow draught normal on a 30' Hartley Ferro Bilge Keel yacht?
I plan on using the yacht for easy cruising, “the no rush to get anywhere type of cruising”, between the Hawksbury River, in New South Wales, the Whitsunday's in Queensland and the top end of Australia.
On my travels, I plan on going-up to explore and fish a number of rivers and shallow bays, there will also be quite a few Islands and, hard to get to (unless you have a shallow draught boat or a long range helicopter
) remote coves and bays, so I was firmly convinced a Tri was the most suitable boat for my purpose. Then I discovered the 30' FC, Bilge Keels Hartley and after thinking things over for a few weeks, I now believe this Hartley would better suit my needs, more-so than a Tri. I'll be looking her over later this week or early next week and if she's as the owner says she is, I'll make a serious offer for her and hopefully become her owner.
I would be interested in what you think of my choice of, my first yacht. A 30ft Ferro Cement Bilge Keel Hartley Sloop.
Cheers,
Bill AU
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Hi and welcome to the forum
Very unusual first yacht choice - in fact very unusual choice at all! Ferro yachts were particularly attractive in your part of the world 30 years ago because building the hulls was cheap and could be done outside. However, the fad only lasted a few years as the downsides became obvious. Chief among these are the fact that few actually got finished to any decent standard and they acquired the reputation something like "Oh that old hulk in the corner of the yard, had 4 owners and still years off finishing". Of course not all were like that and there have been some superb boats built such as the Endurance, some copies of Colin Archers, copies of fishing smacks etc where weight is not important.
It think it fair to say a 30ft shallow draft bilge keel FC boat will be a slow cumbersome beast and will probably need a big engine to make it move. Obviously can't comment on finish and equipment, but I guess the upside is that it will be very cheap for its bulk compared with a more conventional craft.
Going back to the question of draft. UK bilge keelers of that size would normally draw around 4 ft. Although shallow draft was important, the key benefit was the ability to dry out level and as designs developed keels became deeper and more hydrodynamic to improve performance. My first little cruising boat was a bilge keel 19ft, with 2'6" draft which helps put your potential purchase into perspective.
So, provided it has a good engine and you don't expect much sailing performance, it might well be a good choice for your use. But if you want a shallow draft sailing boat without the complications of a centreboard then a catamaran (or possibly tri) is the way to go.
Very unusual first yacht choice - in fact very unusual choice at all! Ferro yachts were particularly attractive in your part of the world 30 years ago because building the hulls was cheap and could be done outside. However, the fad only lasted a few years as the downsides became obvious. Chief among these are the fact that few actually got finished to any decent standard and they acquired the reputation something like "Oh that old hulk in the corner of the yard, had 4 owners and still years off finishing". Of course not all were like that and there have been some superb boats built such as the Endurance, some copies of Colin Archers, copies of fishing smacks etc where weight is not important.
It think it fair to say a 30ft shallow draft bilge keel FC boat will be a slow cumbersome beast and will probably need a big engine to make it move. Obviously can't comment on finish and equipment, but I guess the upside is that it will be very cheap for its bulk compared with a more conventional craft.
Going back to the question of draft. UK bilge keelers of that size would normally draw around 4 ft. Although shallow draft was important, the key benefit was the ability to dry out level and as designs developed keels became deeper and more hydrodynamic to improve performance. My first little cruising boat was a bilge keel 19ft, with 2'6" draft which helps put your potential purchase into perspective.
So, provided it has a good engine and you don't expect much sailing performance, it might well be a good choice for your use. But if you want a shallow draft sailing boat without the complications of a centreboard then a catamaran (or possibly tri) is the way to go.
lw395
Well-Known Member
G'day mates,
I'm a retired seaman but I'm new to sailing and a new member of this forum
Before being converted to seek a bilge keel ferro mono yacht, I had my heart set on a 36' to 40' Trimaran but, after researching Tri's and Monos (for over 18 months) I have come to believe the 30' FC, Bilge Keel, Hartley will suit my purpose better than any deep keel, fin keel or full keel mono or any Tri. (Tri's have a beam problem as you know) One thing that I'm not sure about with the Hartley, her owner says, she has a draught of only 2' 6”! Now that's a shallow draught! Can anyone advise me on this, is such a shallow draught normal on a 30' Hartley Ferro Bilge Keel yacht?
I plan on using the yacht for easy cruising, “the no rush to get anywhere type of cruising”, between the Hawksbury River, in New South Wales, the Whitsunday's in Queensland and the top end of Australia.
On my travels, I plan on going-up to explore and fish a number of rivers and shallow bays, there will also be quite a few Islands and, hard to get to (unless you have a shallow draught boat or a long range helicopter
I'll be looking her over later this week or early next week and if she's as the owner says she is, I'll make a serious offer for her and hopefully become her owner.
I would be interested in what you think of my choice of, my first yacht. A 30ft Ferro Cement Bilge Keel Hartley Sloop.
Cheers,
Bill AU
Two quite extreme boats.
Tri's you either love or hate, budget matters a lot.
30ft sounds small for a ferro yacht, what does it weigh? Will it take too much breeze to get moving? Poor light wind performace equals using a lot more fuel in general.
Lack of draft and low speed might mean poor performance to windward, which again means using the engine more.
Don't buy either without trying them, and try to sail an 'average' 30ft boat or two to get a valid comparison.
If you want to move on, a 'normal' boat is always easier to sell.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
I beg to disagree. Besides a big difference in wetted surface, which will have its effect not just in light air, you've also got the problem of aspect. The efficiency of any wing (whether it's yacht keel, a sail, or an airplane wing) is directly related to aspect ratio. You split the keel into two parts and halve the aspect ratio, compared to a similar fin keel boat. It's all about the balance between lift and draft, just like with any wing.
So bilge keel boats are slow and sail poorly to weather not because the bilge keels happen to be attached to a tub, but because this is inherent to the design.
I saw a bilge keel boat once which had two very long, thin bulb keels. You could claw back a lot of the performance loss this way and I wouldn't think it would be that hard to have decent structural characteristics when you've got two of them. Since you've got two keels, you could afford to make then thinner (higher aspect ratio) than you could a regular fin keel.
I'd love to see it done because I love bilge keel boats. They are just the thing for these waters, it seems. If I were mad enough to keep two yachts, the second one would definitely be a bilge-keeler.
peterb
Well-Known Member
I see your yacht is not potty trained yet?
No, that's the holding tank.
BillAU
New Member
Bilge Keels, Tri's and FC Yaachts!!!
Hello Tranona and lw395,
Thanks for responding, yes, I know they are quite extreme boats, you both give interesting views, may I ask you, over the years, how many ferro yachts have you owned or sailed and how many were bilge keels?
I like boats constructed in FC, Ply covered with Epoxy and straight-out Timber vessels...I'm not real mad about full glass boats or steal boats. I also realy do like Trimarans and much prefer a Tri to a Cat but that's just this old seaman. By the way, I skippered a 12 passenger fishing boat, My Diane, for a summer, out of Brixham in Devon, she was Timber constructed and I had a ball, always finished the day in the Crown And Anchor on the quay front with a pint of Cider
I first became aware of FC yachts back in 1968 while living and working in Greece. A couple of American, Canadian and German mates of mine ordered the plans for and built their FC yachts in in a paddock over the road from the beach. I left Greece for a job in the Middle East before they finished their yachts but they worked on them for the four years I was there. I do not know how things ended as I lost touch with them after moving. I do know there are a number of well built FC yachts in use around the world and by all reports, some of them are by no means slow-boats!
By the way, check-out the yacht sales on the FC Yacht site, you'll see for yourself...No way could those beautiful yachts be termed...A TUB
One of the FC yachts I went after but was beaten to the punch for, was built in Rhodesia in 1975 by Tony Turner. She won the Cape to Rio cruising section in 1976 beating 28 cruisers and 52 racers. According to Hartley and Brooks in new Zealand, she is the 2nd Fijian built.
FC yachts are still built here in Australia but more are built in New Zealand. I do not have the time to build a 30' or 40' yacht, so after reading a lot of information on: FC Yachts, I began searching for a FC yacht that would suit my needs. The 30' Hartley FC BK yacht is my third choice but she could well be the one I end-up with, as for the other two, first is a Samson C-Falcon, the other is a Hartley South Seas but with both yachts, someone is in front of me and I can do nothing about either of them till that person says yea or nay!
The one I most prefer is the Samson C-Falcon, pro' built here in Australia in 2001, she was designed by Samson Yachts and built by Rockingham Yacht Builders here in Australia. She is 42' - 12.80m x Beam: 4mtrs with a Draft of 2mtrs. Her Displacement is 14.5 tons and her Keel/Ballast is Steel encased in concrete. The hull material is Ferro Cement - Fibreglass over and her deck is Fibreglass over marine ply but, she would most likely be too much boat for me to handle on my own, anyway, I think the bloke with first choice will buy her as she is truly a beautiful yacht but I can do nothing about her till the bloke in front of me says yes or no!
As for Trimarans, I do like them but due to personal reasons, I think a large Tri' is off the cards for me, so a couple of months back, I bought the plans for a Jim Brown/John Marpels Sea Clipper 24MC which I planned on building, (I bought the first set of plans, sail #1) she is a trailer sailor but I believe I would be happier with a larger yacht, that's why I'm looking at the 30' Hartley FC BK but when the owner says she draws 2' 6”, well...I'm no expert but I think she may not be a genuine BK Hartley, she may be a copy and the builder may have thought short keels are better and, perhaps they are...I'm no expert, that's why I'm asking you BK sailors. Still, I'll talk with the owner tomorrow and ask a few more questions about who built her and other things.
Who knows, depending on what answers I get from the Hartley owner, I may end-up building the Sea Clipper 24MC. Decisions decisions!
Thanks again for your views...By the way, I would most likely give the yacht, whichever I chose, to one of my kids or grandkids when I finish with it...I've No intentions of selling her on.
Bill AU
Hello Tranona and lw395,
Thanks for responding, yes, I know they are quite extreme boats, you both give interesting views, may I ask you, over the years, how many ferro yachts have you owned or sailed and how many were bilge keels?
I like boats constructed in FC, Ply covered with Epoxy and straight-out Timber vessels...I'm not real mad about full glass boats or steal boats. I also realy do like Trimarans and much prefer a Tri to a Cat but that's just this old seaman. By the way, I skippered a 12 passenger fishing boat, My Diane, for a summer, out of Brixham in Devon, she was Timber constructed and I had a ball, always finished the day in the Crown And Anchor on the quay front with a pint of Cider
I first became aware of FC yachts back in 1968 while living and working in Greece. A couple of American, Canadian and German mates of mine ordered the plans for and built their FC yachts in in a paddock over the road from the beach. I left Greece for a job in the Middle East before they finished their yachts but they worked on them for the four years I was there. I do not know how things ended as I lost touch with them after moving. I do know there are a number of well built FC yachts in use around the world and by all reports, some of them are by no means slow-boats!
By the way, check-out the yacht sales on the FC Yacht site, you'll see for yourself...No way could those beautiful yachts be termed...A TUB
One of the FC yachts I went after but was beaten to the punch for, was built in Rhodesia in 1975 by Tony Turner. She won the Cape to Rio cruising section in 1976 beating 28 cruisers and 52 racers. According to Hartley and Brooks in new Zealand, she is the 2nd Fijian built.
FC yachts are still built here in Australia but more are built in New Zealand. I do not have the time to build a 30' or 40' yacht, so after reading a lot of information on: FC Yachts, I began searching for a FC yacht that would suit my needs. The 30' Hartley FC BK yacht is my third choice but she could well be the one I end-up with, as for the other two, first is a Samson C-Falcon, the other is a Hartley South Seas but with both yachts, someone is in front of me and I can do nothing about either of them till that person says yea or nay!
The one I most prefer is the Samson C-Falcon, pro' built here in Australia in 2001, she was designed by Samson Yachts and built by Rockingham Yacht Builders here in Australia. She is 42' - 12.80m x Beam: 4mtrs with a Draft of 2mtrs. Her Displacement is 14.5 tons and her Keel/Ballast is Steel encased in concrete. The hull material is Ferro Cement - Fibreglass over and her deck is Fibreglass over marine ply but, she would most likely be too much boat for me to handle on my own, anyway, I think the bloke with first choice will buy her as she is truly a beautiful yacht but I can do nothing about her till the bloke in front of me says yes or no!
As for Trimarans, I do like them but due to personal reasons, I think a large Tri' is off the cards for me, so a couple of months back, I bought the plans for a Jim Brown/John Marpels Sea Clipper 24MC which I planned on building, (I bought the first set of plans, sail #1) she is a trailer sailor but I believe I would be happier with a larger yacht, that's why I'm looking at the 30' Hartley FC BK but when the owner says she draws 2' 6”, well...I'm no expert but I think she may not be a genuine BK Hartley, she may be a copy and the builder may have thought short keels are better and, perhaps they are...I'm no expert, that's why I'm asking you BK sailors
. Still, I'll talk with the owner tomorrow and ask a few more questions about who built her and other things.Who knows, depending on what answers I get from the Hartley owner, I may end-up building the Sea Clipper 24MC. Decisions decisions!
Thanks again for your views...By the way, I would most likely give the yacht, whichever I chose, to one of my kids or grandkids when I finish with it...I've No intentions of selling her on.
Bill AU
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Think it is fair to say there have been some superb FC boats - mate of mine built an Endurance 40 from a Windboats hull - but home built ones are very variable. Not only are the designs often odd, but it is difficult to build and finish a substantial boat on a modest DIY budget.
Combination of FC, shallow draft, bilge keels 30ft adds up to a heavy slow tub. You seem to be suggesting it is not an original Hartley design but a copy, which might ring more alarm bells!
It is really difficult to advise whether this is a good boat for you without actually seeing it, knowing your expectations and particularly your budget. If it is cheap, well equipped and you have low expectations of performance, then it might be a good buy!
Combination of FC, shallow draft, bilge keels 30ft adds up to a heavy slow tub. You seem to be suggesting it is not an original Hartley design but a copy, which might ring more alarm bells!
It is really difficult to advise whether this is a good boat for you without actually seeing it, knowing your expectations and particularly your budget. If it is cheap, well equipped and you have low expectations of performance, then it might be a good buy!
DJE
Well-Known Member
That's some generalisation!
The two keels on my boat are shorter than the alternative fin keel as well as being shallower and so have a similar aspect ratio. The two keels also have an assymetric section, the outer surface is flat and the inner surface is convex. The keels are splayed so that the leeward keel is vertical when heeled to a typical sailing angle of about 20 degrees. The accelerated flow over the convex surface then generates lift to windward. I have no complaints about performance to windward; my only gripe is the slamming caused when the root of the windward keel breaks the surface in a choppy sea.
BillAU
New Member
Thanks for your views but don't you think, it all depends on who built the boat...In what-ever medimum? I know a few people who's "hobby work" is first class. They work in offices by day and work in their home workshops nights and weekend and the items they turn-out are beautifull pieces any craftsman would be proud of.
As for the 30' BK FC Hartley, I do not know if she is a genuine Hartley or not. Like I said in my earlier post, I'm no expert with sail boats. I just thought 2'6" was a pretty shallow draught for a sail boat but as I'm no expert, I'm seeking advice, preferably from people experienced, like the following post, with Bilge Keel yachts.
Thanks again for your viwes.
Thanks for responding DJE, it's good to get the views from people who own a BK yacht...Even if it's not a Ferro Bilge Keel yachtThat's some generalisation!
The two keels on my boat are shorter than the alternative fin keel as well as being shallower and so have a similar aspect ratio. The two keels also have an assymetric section, the outer surface is flat and the inner surface is convex. The keels are splayed so that the leeward keel is vertical when heeled to a typical sailing angle of about 20 degrees. The accelerated flow over the convex surface then generates lift to windward. I have no complaints about performance to windward; my only gripe is the slamming caused when the root of the windward keel breaks the surface in a choppy sea.
I have no idea what size the keels are on the 30' Hartley, I've only seen pictures of her at anchor and below deck, she looks good and well cared for. I do understand that a picture can tell a thousand lies, so I need to drive the few thousand KM to inspect the yacht...Before making any offers
I'm sure the owner would beach the yacht for me to inspect the hull but...If he refused, I would walk away with no regrets.
By the way, what's the draught of your BK yacht?
Thanks again for your advice, it's much apprecated.
Bill AU
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DJE
Well-Known Member
A touch under four feet draft and 29 feet LOA.
BillAU
New Member
Thanks for that, I guess I can make no decision till I inspect the yacht. I have just now received an email from the owner, he says the "keels" are 2ft 6in! So perhaps I got it wrong when I said, the draught was 2ft 6in
If her keels are 2ft 6in, then I expect she would draw as much as your yacht and perhaps a wee bit more being Ferro
Thanks again for your advice on this BK matter.
Bill AU
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Without wishing to prolong the discussion, but one thing you cannot do with "bilge keels" is generalise. Just read over this whole thread. "Bilge" and "twin" are not interchangeable. At one extreme you have a boat like an RM which are high performance with deep draft - but capable of drying out and at the other end you have boats with two keels on their bilges such as Snapdragons and Macwesters (or even my Eventide) where the keels serve more to stop them from falling over rather than contribute significantly to sailing performance. DJEs Sadler is closer to the RM with performance very little different from the fin keel version. The boat you are considering - if the draft is a small as you suggest is likely to be at the other end of the spectrum.
Could not agree more about the standard that some amateurs can achieve, but I think you will find this is the exception rather than the norm. People often go down this route because they cannot find what they want in a ready made boat so the end result is often idiosyncratic - fine if your ideas are in line with those of the builder!
Could not agree more about the standard that some amateurs can achieve, but I think you will find this is the exception rather than the norm. People often go down this route because they cannot find what they want in a ready made boat so the end result is often idiosyncratic - fine if your ideas are in line with those of the builder!
BillAU
New Member
Hello Tranona,
I guess we should not generalise on any class/make/construction of vessel, or anything else. like I have already said, I'm no expert with sailing boats and so I seek the advice of others with experience
I have not seen or inspected the Hartley, so I can not say if she sails, or motors, like a brick or a good costal/Island hopper vessel.
I fully agree with you Tranona, it's a buyer beware in “all” second hand markets.
I was put-on to this yacht by a mate who knows the owner, the owner was planing a long sea trip and he spent over $50,000 in the past two years on work on the boat, including doing a new cabin top which he had built from scratch.
He suffered a brain tumor and entered hospital for a brain operation. On returning home from hospital, he knew his plans for a long sailing trip was no longer on the cards, so he's selling the boat and my mate told him, I could be interested in buying. Since being put in contact with the seller, all correspondence between him and I has been by email and, if you think my emails are jumbled...You should read his. I guess that's to be expected from someone who's just had a brain operation.
Anyway, I'll call him on the phone and make arrangements to get to see the boat as soon as I can get up there.
Cheers Tranona
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
That's some generalisation!
The two keels on my boat are shorter than the alternative fin keel as well as being shallower and so have a similar aspect ratio. The two keels also have an assymetric section, the outer surface is flat and the inner surface is convex. The keels are splayed so that the leeward keel is vertical when heeled to a typical sailing angle of about 20 degrees. The accelerated flow over the convex surface then generates lift to windward. I have no complaints about performance to windward; my only gripe is the slamming caused when the root of the windward keel breaks the surface in a choppy sea.
Well, it's a true generalization. It applies to similar design keels but for being fin or bilge. All other things being equal, in other words.
A bilge keel boat like this:
http://www.rm-yachts.com/contenu/,rm_1050,42
is obviously going to sail better to windward and be faster than a tubby long fin keel boat like our old Pearson. So the generalization is true only when other things are equal. But the RM won't sail better than a J-Boat with a similarly extreme, but fin keel.
Your keels do not have the same aspect ratio as they would if your boat were single keeled. Their being shorter and shallower is exactly what ruins the aspect ratio. So your boat would have better performance with a longer fin keel, than it does with your shorter bilge keels.
Maybe there is some advantage of bilge keels since they don't have to be symmetrical. The windward keel is taken out of action by its angle while heeling? And the leeward one has an airfoil shape creating lift only in that one direction? Maybe that's something special; I don't know. My knowledge of fluid dynamics is not adequate to understand this aspect of it.
