snowleopard
Well-Known Member
I notice quite a few of the boats in Looe dry out in cradles to keep them upright. How well does that work? It seems a lot of effort to go to to avoid having bilge keels.
Why so few bilge keel yachts?
- Thread starter Gludy
- Start date
phatcat1
Well-Known Member
We own a Legend 36 here on the east coast, and bought her after many years sailing other (fin-keeled) boats. We were sceptical about performance as we had heard all the "bilge-keel" stories of poor performance etc over the years.
However, others owners had raved about its performance, so went for a few test sails.
They do three keel options, deep fin(2+m), shallow fin(1.5m) & bilge(1.5m). After sailing versions of all three, the bilge performs the same as the deep fin, and better than the shallow fin. The reason is the keels are asymmetric, and with two keels, higher level of stability than the shallow fin. With the asymmetric keels, as the boat heals to the wind, the leeward keel becomes vertical (and a fin does the opposite) which increases its efficiency and the windward keel rises (to become crew on the rail). It is the same principle as to why racers with canting keels have dagger or lee-boards - the keel increases the righting moment, and the dagger prevents the leeway. With the asymmetric keel shape (like an aircraft wing) it also provides lift to windward, which is an odd phenomenon till you get used to it, and very useful!
The down side is that when you are level and motoring, the keels probably produce more drag than flat, straight keels, but she is a sailing boat, so sail more, motor less.(still motors at 6-7 knots)
Those that have sailed her with me have been very surprised by her performance to windward, any many don't believe she is a bilge. Great for the east coast (or anywhere) and much cheapness when you want to scrub/antifoul/service prop/anodes etc.
Legend (Hunter USA) pruduce bilge keel up to 38ft, and are now going through a consultation process with owners and potential customers about extending the bilge range up to 42ft. They have identified there is a market for this size of boat and are in the design process at the moment.
However, others owners had raved about its performance, so went for a few test sails.
They do three keel options, deep fin(2+m), shallow fin(1.5m) & bilge(1.5m). After sailing versions of all three, the bilge performs the same as the deep fin, and better than the shallow fin. The reason is the keels are asymmetric, and with two keels, higher level of stability than the shallow fin. With the asymmetric keels, as the boat heals to the wind, the leeward keel becomes vertical (and a fin does the opposite) which increases its efficiency and the windward keel rises (to become crew on the rail). It is the same principle as to why racers with canting keels have dagger or lee-boards - the keel increases the righting moment, and the dagger prevents the leeway. With the asymmetric keel shape (like an aircraft wing) it also provides lift to windward, which is an odd phenomenon till you get used to it, and very useful!
The down side is that when you are level and motoring, the keels probably produce more drag than flat, straight keels, but she is a sailing boat, so sail more, motor less.(still motors at 6-7 knots)
Those that have sailed her with me have been very surprised by her performance to windward, any many don't believe she is a bilge. Great for the east coast (or anywhere) and much cheapness when you want to scrub/antifoul/service prop/anodes etc.
Legend (Hunter USA) pruduce bilge keel up to 38ft, and are now going through a consultation process with owners and potential customers about extending the bilge range up to 42ft. They have identified there is a market for this size of boat and are in the design process at the moment.
Apparently some sail pretty well to windward though I would'nt include mine among them.The point it that you can get in where others can't & if you really love nature & adventure that is priceless.
I suspect that there is a lot of promotion of fin keel yachts etc because there is more money to be screwed out of the owners
BurnitBlue
Well-Known Member
I am interested in how bilge keels are attached to the boat. Are they encapsulated or do they have a similar system to the fin which is a stub of GRP faired with an exposed iron keel bolted on with extra web stringers inside for strength.
There are all different methods depending on the type you choose.I would go for an iron shoe on a grp stub.(that way you can bounce off rocks without to much damage) hopefully
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Both, although encapsulated limits the keels to vertical to the hull surface otherwise the hull will not come out of the mould.
The most common is bolted on in the same way as fin keels, either just to the hull or to a stub. Possible also to have keels going through the hull from inside. Reinforcing the bottom is sometimes an issue, particulalry with splayed keels and boats that take the ground regularly on a drying mooring. Many early Westerlies had problems but most should now be beefed up.
Pete7
Well-Known Member
Our Moody 31 has 6 or 7 substantial short bolts through the hull into the cast iron keels, 2 forward, 2 rear and a couple in the middle staggered side to side. I think the keels fit into a slight rebate on the outside of the hull. Certainly on the inside there is a 12" wide raised section running the length of each keel which the hull stringers join. Hull is about 20mm solid GRP at this point.
Advantages of twin keels? a year ago we faced a long night passage across the channel into the wind. Knowing the forecast was predicting better conditions the following day we diverted into Bembridge at dusk, a drying harbour on a falling tide. The pontoons had a noisy mobo rally rafting 6 or 7 out which we didn't fancy joining so picked up a spare private bouy in the middle of the harbour and hoped for the best. An hour later we dried out upright. We slipped at dawn on the tide to find the wind had gone round to the NW and had a good trip across. Our options with a fin would have been much more limited. We may not have got into Bembridge and if we did would have been on the outside of a big raft. Other options would have been a rolly night at anchor in Sandown bay or loose an hour of progress and back to Gosport.
Those French RMs are becoming popular, saw quite a few in the CIs over the last two weeks, including one in purple
. Sorry rubbish photo, camera phone pointing too close to the sun.Pete
Last edited:
Wansworth
Well-Known Member
There are some bilge keelers with splayed out keels that are moulded,the cobra and the hurley 24.The early bilge keelers were surpased by more scientific appendages under the pen of David Feltham et al
Tranona
Well-Known Member
But if I remember rightly, the keels were separate mouldings inserted from inside after the hull was moulded. The great advantage of course was that moulded keels allowed the use of shot or metal punchings as ballast. Much cheaper than iron or lead castings - until the GRP wears away and water gets in!
Mavis
Well-Known Member
Yes, I had an Anderson 22 lift keel (great boat) which I kept in a cradle because of her stubb keel. The cradles work fine, especially for shallow or long keeled boats. But for the deep fin keelers then balance is a problem, and if for instance in an easterly gale the sand on the river bed shifts a bit then sometimes you see these boats leaning at quite an angle at low tide. It is just more hassle and something else to worry about.
jenku
Well-Known Member
One modern Twin-Keel design worth having a look at is the Red Fox. More info here:
http://twin-keeler.blogspot.com/2009/06/red-fox-200t.html
http://twin-keeler.blogspot.com/2009/06/red-fox-200t.html
voicilesrosbifs
Well-Known Member
Going back to the original post, we went through the same process in our search for a boat for the River Exe and settled on a Sadler 29 b/k that, after a bit of TLC, is scrubbing up a treat and some day may be as pretty as 'Close Encounter'. There really is a dearth of good bilge keelers after about 1992, but there are some tidy older ones out there if you search hard enough.
As to a lifting keeler, we were warned by those on the Exe about gunk and grit getting inside the keel case; the same would apply on that lovely Bristol Channel mud.
As to a lifting keeler, we were warned by those on the Exe about gunk and grit getting inside the keel case; the same would apply on that lovely Bristol Channel mud.
DJE
Well-Known Member
Aw shucks!
I'll have to get some more photos; she's sporting a brand new mainsail this year!jwilson
Well-Known Member
Bristol Channel & bilge keelers
I sailed the Bristol Channel for many years, and the ideal boat is probably a bilge-keeler with iron keels (not GRP moulded keels). With a boat like this you can go almost anywhere, including lots of interesting little harbours with stony bottoms (Lynmouth, Porlock, even Clovelly). Yes bilge-keelers do not go to windward as well as fin or lift-keelers, but with Bristol Channel tides even a slow boat can go a very long way in a day if you work the tides.
A longish fin keel is not too bad, as you can often lie against harbour walls, but modern AWB deep bulbed fins are hopeless for the area unless you want to commute betweeen the few marinas.
As others have said a centreboard or drop keel sounds good but you do end up having a very vulnerable hull if the bottom is rough.
I sailed the Bristol Channel for many years, and the ideal boat is probably a bilge-keeler with iron keels (not GRP moulded keels). With a boat like this you can go almost anywhere, including lots of interesting little harbours with stony bottoms (Lynmouth, Porlock, even Clovelly). Yes bilge-keelers do not go to windward as well as fin or lift-keelers, but with Bristol Channel tides even a slow boat can go a very long way in a day if you work the tides.
A longish fin keel is not too bad, as you can often lie against harbour walls, but modern AWB deep bulbed fins are hopeless for the area unless you want to commute betweeen the few marinas.
As others have said a centreboard or drop keel sounds good but you do end up having a very vulnerable hull if the bottom is rough.
bbg
Well-Known Member
To the OP.
Surely the answer to "Why so few" is purely commercial.
Twin keelers do not perform as well as fin keelers, and by their nature they must be more expensive to make. Their only advantage is that they take the ground easily and well. They are a perfect boat for drying harbours. If one does not moor in, or intend to cruise in areas with, drying harbours, other styles of boats would be preferable.
In that sense they can be seen as something of a one-trick pony. In that they are not alone - lots of other styles of boats are very good at what they do (think dayboats) but might be unsuitable (or less suitable than other boats) for broader use. However, the market for twin keelers is limited because the cruising ground for which they are suitable - drying harbours - doesn't exist everywhere and is itself unattractive to many boaters.
The consequence is that builders won't see much profit from them. They will have to compete against less expensive to build fin keels, without the same sales numbers. Essentially the target market is people who say, "I am willing to pay more for a boat that performs worse (than a fin keel) in order to visit / moor in drying harbours." I would have thought that is a relatively small market.
Surely the answer to "Why so few" is purely commercial.
Twin keelers do not perform as well as fin keelers, and by their nature they must be more expensive to make. Their only advantage is that they take the ground easily and well. They are a perfect boat for drying harbours. If one does not moor in, or intend to cruise in areas with, drying harbours, other styles of boats would be preferable.
In that sense they can be seen as something of a one-trick pony. In that they are not alone - lots of other styles of boats are very good at what they do (think dayboats) but might be unsuitable (or less suitable than other boats) for broader use. However, the market for twin keelers is limited because the cruising ground for which they are suitable - drying harbours - doesn't exist everywhere and is itself unattractive to many boaters.
The consequence is that builders won't see much profit from them. They will have to compete against less expensive to build fin keels, without the same sales numbers. Essentially the target market is people who say, "I am willing to pay more for a boat that performs worse (than a fin keel) in order to visit / moor in drying harbours." I would have thought that is a relatively small market.
jenku
Well-Known Member
There are some more arguments in favor of them in fact. I sail one i Sweden where there are no drying harbours, but a lot of very shallow places. So I want a boat with shallow draft. I would get a lifting keeler alright, but wifey thinks them too tippy and having the mechanism in the middle of the boat makes it less roomy. Also, the mechanism can fail.
Additionally we do store our boats on the dry for half a year and this one stands by itself, no need for a cradle and no sleepless night when the gales blow (a little sleepless as other boats still can fall over it....).
So they are definitely not only good for drying out. If you want a shallow draft boat that still is very stable, self-righting and sails more upright (good for wifes!) it can very well be a good choice in other sailing areas.
I do not think the worse performance to windward is any problem at all when cruising and the shallow draft can even give you advantages when tacking in close quarters.
Oh, and the point thus is that they are less common mostly because people don't really think but buy the most common boats...not those that would be best for them.
Additionally we do store our boats on the dry for half a year and this one stands by itself, no need for a cradle and no sleepless night when the gales blow (a little sleepless as other boats still can fall over it....).
So they are definitely not only good for drying out. If you want a shallow draft boat that still is very stable, self-righting and sails more upright (good for wifes!) it can very well be a good choice in other sailing areas.
I do not think the worse performance to windward is any problem at all when cruising and the shallow draft can even give you advantages when tacking in close quarters.
Oh, and the point thus is that they are less common mostly because people don't really think but buy the most common boats...not those that would be best for them.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
It's interesting that so many promote the myth
of bilge-keelers' inability to go to windward, when a Frenchman in la Rochelle is selling just that as the latest go-faster design.
And he has the figures to prove it.
Re lift-keelers - there are very few of those around and most seem to confuse a centreboarder with lift keels.
Centreboards suffer frequently from jamming boards. Lift keelers almost never get anything in there.
of bilge-keelers' inability to go to windward, when a Frenchman in la Rochelle is selling just that as the latest go-faster design.
And he has the figures to prove it.
Re lift-keelers - there are very few of those around and most seem to confuse a centreboarder with lift keels.
Centreboards suffer frequently from jamming boards. Lift keelers almost never get anything in there.
aquaplane
Well-Known Member
Ok I sail a Centaur and may be biassed, but when I decided that my compromise lay towards comfort rather than performance, the minor drop in performance of a bilge keel boat is insignificant.
If you like chasing other folk round buoys, it probably matters to you. There is no need to rubbish someone elses choice to justify your own choice though.
Anyway, I'm sure my Centaur goes to windward, I have done it. It's better if there is a decent breeze to work with, no point pratting about at 1 to 2 knots.
If you like chasing other folk round buoys, it probably matters to you. There is no need to rubbish someone elses choice to justify your own choice though.
Anyway, I'm sure my Centaur goes to windward, I have done it. It's better if there is a decent breeze to work with, no point pratting about at 1 to 2 knots.
ninky
Well-Known Member
i have a swing keel with bilge feet. great for the shallows, drying out and with the bonus of a fin keel. jag 22. as others have said, depends what type of sailing you want to do. i'm a potterer.
TamarMike
Well-Known Member
Comparatively few grp yachts have been broken up so far so there are plenty of existing bilge keelers around all capable of being refitted to a high standard at a lot less cost than a new boat. I would asume the main market for brand new boats is either well heeled folk who will also wish to keep their new pride and joy in a marina or serious sportsmen who will want the best possible performance from the most modern design. For general coastal cruising, weekends away etc. a refitted older boat will satisfy most people. Add in the global market factors and it is perhaps surprising any new bilge keelers are built.
When it comes to older slower boats the bilge keel versions do seem to come at a premium cf fin keelers of the same design - which is why I've got a deep fin!
When it comes to older slower boats the bilge keel versions do seem to come at a premium cf fin keelers of the same design - which is why I've got a deep fin!
