Why so few bilge keel yachts?

[ninky]

out of interest - what are the maximum speeds for fin keeled boats compared to bilge keels in a small boat (say 22ft)? is it this that makes bilge keelers slower or is it just the fact you have to do bigger zig zags due to not being able to sail so close to the wind?

 

[jimi]

I would be interested in comparisons of a Sadler 29 bilge v. fin

 

[Pete7]

out of interest - what are the maximum speeds for fin keeled boats compared to bilge keels in a small boat (say 22ft)? is it this that makes bilge keelers slower or is it just the fact you have to do bigger zig zags due to not being able to sail so close to the wind?

I don't think its that twin keels are slow but perhaps a different attitude to sailing by the owners that people see. A retired couple or mum and dad plus the kids out for a pleasant afternoons sailing aren't probably going to be fiddling with the sails as much as say a charter boat with skipper looking to impress his brood. Add a set of 5 to 10 year old sails including a partially furled Genny to keep the boat upright and the Mrs happy and your loosing some performance, but so what? We can still reach hull speed easily enough in F3/4 although a new genny would be nice there have been other priorities like fridges, again to keep the Mrs happy.

Aslo don't forget the weight penalty a cruising yacht will have with extra kit on board. Ask the likes of Flaming if he races with a tender and outboard, plus generator, full water and fuel tanks on board, a fortnights food and clothes and you know what the answer will be. So its not the boat as such which is slow, just the way some owners prefer to perhaps sail them in a relaxed easy going style rather than on the edge looking for every 1/10 of a knot. Those owners will have probably have chosen the deep fin option.

Pete

 

[Pete7]

I would be interested in comparisons of a Sadler 29 bilge v. fin

Can't help with the Sadler, but Roger posted this recently about the Moody 31s,

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203360&highlight=moody

 

[rwoofer]

To the original OP.

Most perceived disadvantages of bilge keel yachts can simply removed by design as my own 29ft RM ably demonstrates. Upwind it is a match for any fast cruiser and downwind it can even plane. The keels are narrow in the chord and have dirty great big bulbs at the end to make the boat stiff.

The one disadvantage that would apply to RMs is that they do cost a bit more. Having two sets of keel attachments is always going to create that problem. However, what I would consider the two best modern bilge keelers, the RMs and the Sadler 290, are built to much better engineering standards than equivalent JenBenBavs which means they command an even greater premium than just the keels alone. Maybe as much as 30-40% extra.

Personally I was prepared to pay the extra over an equivalent fin keeler to get great performance and drying out ability.

 

[Tranona]

I would be interested in comparisons of a Sadler 29 bilge v. fin

There was a comparison done when they were current by one of the mags. Conclusion IIRC was that you would only be able to tell the difference in a round the cans race. This was of course over 20 years ago, but I guess the owners association or Mike Lucas would direct you to copies.

 

[PeterGibbs]

As with so many things nautical there's some science and some art about it. I sailed two bilgers for 14 years and the performance is slightly less to wind - but so what?
45 degs vs 40. That's not a show busting loss. At least as significant is the condition of the sails - baggy mains will cost at least 5 degs whatever the keel.

If you want a boat that sails 30 degs off the wind no production boat will meet the spec. Good bilgers - and I think the Westerly Fulmar is in this category - with new sails will set a pace that many fin keelers of similar length will find difficult to better, if at all.
And have all the advantages of shallow draught.

But continental habits don't much go for bilge keels - although the Dutch should go for them in spades, so much of their water is only 2-3m at best.

PWG

 

[sailorman]

As with so many things nautical there's some science and some art about it. I sailed two bilgers for 14 years and the performance is slightly less to wind - but so what?
45 deg vs 40. That's not a show busting loss. At least as significant is the condition of the sails - baggy mains will cost at least 5 deg whatever the keel.

If you want a boat that sails 30 deg off the wind no production boat will meet the spec. Good bilgers - and I think the Westerly Fulmar is in this category - with new sails will set a pace that many fin keelers of similar length will find difficult to better, if at all.
And have all the advantages of shallow draught.

But continental habits don't much go for bilge keels - although the Dutch should go for them in spades, so much of their water is only 2-3m at best.

PWG

45 deg vs 40. That's not a show busting loss

Harwich > Belgium that equates to 5 + N mls.
or Greater than 14 mls compared to my fin keeler

 

[smeaks]

To windward you end up sailing sideways.

On the East Coast (where we sail) a bilge keeler would make perfect sense; yet, I haven't got one as I'm unwilling to take the performance hit.

That said, there's a French builder around (RM IIRC) that's supposed to build quite decently sailing bilge keelers.

I sail a bilge keel model and sail her with a friend who owns a fin of the same model.. moody 27 there is not a great amount of difference and both are respectable boats in heavy seas. There are many slab sided caravans of bioats sporting all sorts of keel comfigurations that would beat me in a cross wind slide!

 

[Koeketiene]

45 deg vs 40. That's not a show busting loss

Harwich > Belgium that equates to 5 + N mls.
or Greater than 14 mls compared to my fin keeler

You're a fine one to talk
Only because your production fin keeler is able to sail 28° off the wind (or was it 27°)

 

[whipper_snapper]

In that sense they can be seen as something of a one-trick pony. In that they are not alone - lots of other styles of boats are very good at what they do (think dayboats) but might be unsuitable (or less suitable than other boats) for broader use. However, the market for twin keelers is limited because the cruising ground for which they are suitable - drying harbours - doesn't exist everywhere and is itself unattractive to many boaters.

But its one hell of a trick! The ability to take the ground (or not to have to worry about touching) and to creep into shallower places transforms the sailing experiences in many parts of Europe (and the rest of the world).

I suspect the decline in the popularity of bilge keelers is linked to the phenomenal recent rise in relative wealth of new sailors and the type of boats they go for. In the old days the norm was to start with a cheap tub and keep it on a drying mooring, now the norm is a shiny new AWB in a marine.

drying harbours - doesn't exist everywhere and is itself unattractive to many boaters.

If that's true it is amazing. You can always stay in deep water if you want to, but some of my most memorable boating experiences have come from nights spent dried out in tiny harbours away from the shiny yots and shiny yotties.

Harwich > Belgium that equates to 5 + N mls.
or Greater than 14 mls compared to my fin keeler

You can take the ferry and save hours!!

 

[DJE]

I would be interested in comparisons of a Sadler 29 bilge v. fin

Jimi,
I posted this earlier.

I must be a bit of an oddball as I race (but only at club level) in a bilge (twin?) keel boat. I've spent a fair bit on new sails and I find the windward performance of the Sadler 29 more than satisfactory; we tack through 80 to 90 degrees and make 5.0 to 5.5 knots close hauled once we have 16 knots or more across the deck. The assymetric section of the keels seems to help by developing lift to windward and virtually eliminating leeway.

The slamming when the windward keel breaks the surface is the biggest drawback that I find especially on a long passage. When offshore I know I'd prefer a deep fin but when creeping up a creek or in to a shallow anchorage I love the bilge keels. If and when we change the boat it's going to be a very tough call to choose the keel configuration.

 

[Cloona]

triple keels are the way forward -

a centre keel with bilgle plates -

 

[jimi]

We've chartered a Sadler 29 bilge keeler a couple of times and I loved the boat apart from upwind where the slap on the windward keel was very disconcerting, I suspect the deep keel version would be a thing of joy ... however the ability to dry out has significant advantage .. it would be a tough call!

 

[Tranona]

triple keels are the way forward -

a centre keel with bilgle plates -

Intertesting observation. I have (or rather had) one but removed the bilge plates and deepened the central keel from 2ft3in to 3ft. Why? apart from transforming the boat's handling I moved from a drying mooring to a deep water marina with access at all states of tide.

I think that is the main reason for the demise of new bilge keelers. Boats reflect the times and in the 70's there were virtually no deep water marinas so even people who were rich enough to afford new boats (and therefore comparatively richer than similar people today) bought boats that suited their usage conditions.

Conditions have changed - boats have changed. Demand for new boats comes from different places these days so deep fin keels with their performance advantages are what people buy, and therefore what builders supply.

 

[TiggerToo]

It is surprising how few of these are now being made.

plenty of new RMs around in France this summer.... I have come to like them quite a bit (esthetically). If you believe the owners, they also sail like a dream.....

so, I am afraid the frogs have got one up on the unimaginative poms...


RM RM RM all the way

 

[PeterGibbs]

45 deg vs 40. That's not a show busting loss

Harwich > Belgium that equates to 5 + N mls.
or Greater than 14 mls compared to my fin keeler

Er yes, but it's only of relevance if the wind is head on from the destination - and how likely is that on your course - about 135 degs?

PWG

 

[georgeo]

?Why so few bilge keelers

A friend of mine is wanting to buy a sailing boat and because its the Bristol Channel with lots of small harbours wants to buy a bilge keel boat.

It is surprising how few of these are now being made.

What is the disadvantage of having a bilge keel boat?

Is it a performance sacrifice?

Well. I suppose it is about time I put my oar in and had my say. I have owned the "Black Pig' (RM1050) now for just over a year now and am approaching my first 1000 NM under (virtually) my sole charge. As time goes on, and as I mount the learning curve, I realise just what a good boat she is. She ticks all my requirements, sails like a witch, points beautifully (though not quite as high as my friends' sigma 33!), can plane downwind, and dries out beautifully. How many boats can do this:

as well as this:

or this:

She takes about 8 knots true wind to get moving, but under gennaker, at this wind speed we were touching 5 knots, at 12 knots we were touching 8 knots and have touched double figures at 16 knots plus true. Polar curves published on the AVRM web site indicate these figures are what would be expected. Close hauled we will do 6 -8 knots at 12-16 knots true. A French owner has reported 14+ knots in 35 knots of wind (I think 'les culottes brun' applicable here!). And there is no slamming of the windward keel, nor have I yet managed to get anywhere near a proper broach (fingers crossed here, and time will tell!)
Structurally she is very strong based on the hull which is effectively a composite material, with an integral keel frame. I know for certain, regrettably I tested this for real, bouncing off a rock close to Sark at 5 knots last year, result, one loosened cross threaded keel bolt. The surveyor said an AWB would have suffered severe damage under the same circumstances. Mind you it was a pig to fix, basically because of the strength of the attachment of the keels into the structure, but masterfully returned to new condition by the very skilled artisans at the St Malo RM dealership.
But as rb_stretch has pointed out, cost is now the limiting factor, particularly with the collapse of the £ against the euro. RM had hoped to break into the UK market, but these economic factors plus the loss of Portway, has meant they have turned their attentions to the Mediterranean, with the production of the 1300 (which also sails beautifully, see videos on You tube), their first model with twin wheel helming and available with fin keel as well as bilge keel. They are also producing 1050s with fin keels, and I believe the performance is remarkably similar to the twin keel versions.
But certainly us RM afficionados would be delighted to see RM back at Southampton, where their niche market (the shallower/tidal parts of the UK for instance) could be exploited.

 

[Vid]

triple keels are the way forward -

a centre keel with bilgle plates -

My Achilles 24 has triple keels and reportedly this model is very nearly as fast as the standard fin keel model. I've no complaints about its ability and performance.

 

[dulcibella]

Cooperation is the best way forward. I have a Rustler long-keeler and my mate has a bilge-keel Konsort. We take the more appropriate boat for the trip that we have in mind.