Why don't they make longer winch handles ?

[JumbleDuck]

Do you really think that or is this post a joke? If you're going to be quoting Newton you ought to have a better understanding of physics or make your jokes more obvious.

In that post I was talking about the overall forces on the winch. If you apply 100N to it, the reaction force at the mounting will be 100N in the opposite direction, regardless of where the force is applied.

Changing the point of application to the force changes the applied moment (torque) and therefore the reaction moment. In the case of a winch with a certain load and gear, though, the torque needed is fixed, so if you apply the force further out you need less of it (and therefore less reaction) to get the same torque.

The following post was referring to internal forces in winches, which are determined by the design as well as by the external forces.

I'm reluctant to start a willy-waving contest over knowledge of physics, but if you tell me your qualifications I'll tell you mine.

 

[Simondjuk]

Jumble Duck,

I may entirely wrong, but I think that what LustyD is getting at is the fact that if you put a thumping great big 6 foot handle on a winch, with very little effort applied to the end of the handle, you could easily destroy the winch, whatever the winch is grinding, and ultimately, if everything locks up solid, twist the winch clean off the deck. You won't be able to do this with a 6" handle, but might with a 6' one.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I may entirely wrong, but I think that what LustyD is getting at is the fact that if you put a thumping great big 6 foot handle on a winch, with very little effort applied to the end of the handle, you could easily destroy the winch, whatever the winch is grinding, and ultimately, if everything locks up solid, twist the winch clean off the deck. You won't be able to do this with a 6" handle, but might with a 6' one.

It's a little difficult to tell what he means, but if it's the above then only the "seized winch" bit makes sense, because in normal use the loads on a winch are externally set by the wind, sails, sheeting angles and so on. I suppose that using a longer handle might encourage someone silly to keep more sail up for longer and thus increase loads on the whole system, but then so would the larger winches recommended. If you have the right sail up for the conditions, sheeted correctly, the length of winch handle you choose to use will make no difference at all to the torques on and in the winch, and longer handles will actually reduce the reaction forces.

If you really want to pull a winch out of a boat, get a gorilla to grind it too tight with too short a handle.

My boat came with a telescopic winch handle, which extends (from memory) from about 7" to about 10". It's OK, but to ensure that it doesn't change length at awkward moments the detente which holds it in position is rather tight, so changing length when I want to is a faff. It's also rather chunky for standard plastic winch pockets. It's still knocking around somewhere as a spare, but the plain 10" Holt-Allens are much easier.

I had the fun of sailing all this summer with a bust wrist, so was being more careful than usual in limiting the forces I put on winches

 

[Simondjuk]

I see what you mean in that to sheet a genoa correctly needs a given sheet tension and no more, so it matters not what tools you use to achieve that tension, provided it's within the capabilities of the system.

In some circumstances though, a long handle could lead to damage. For example, when grinding on a runner which needs winching until it can't be winched any more with a short handle, then putting in a longer handle, another turn or more can be gained. If the runner tail is tighter, the load on the winch, all the gears as the extra turn goes on, and all the pawls which prevent it freewheeling backwards, and the deck the whole lot is attached to simply must be higher. Provide a long enough handle, and eventually something most certainly will break.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In some circumstances though, a long handle could lead to damage. For example, when grinding on a runner which needs winching until it can't be winched any more with a short handle, then putting in a longer handle, another turn or more can be gained. If the runner tail is tighter, the load on the winch, all the gears as the extra turn goes on, and all the pawls which prevent it freewheeling backwards, and the deck the whole lot is attached to simply must be higher. Provide a long enough handle, and eventually something most certainly will break.

True, but you'll do the same damage by giving a bigger gorilla a shorter handle.

 

[Simondjuk]

True, but you'll do the same damage by giving a bigger gorilla a shorter handle.

Indeed, but you don't tend to meet gorillas so big that the instruction, "Grind that on as hard as you can" will cause damage in the circumstances I describe. If there were three foot long winch handles kicking around, I'd be concerned.

 

[johnphilip]

Almost the same but different.
We used to have an S-L Anchorman (I think it was called ) hand anchor winch, This looked much like a sheet winch but lower and with a chain gypsy.
The relevance to this thread was that the winch handle hole was set about one and a half inches off centre. This gave the option of using your 10" winch handle with a lever arm of 8.5,10 or 11.5 inches depending which direction you put the handle in. As far as I recall we rarely if ever used the long lever position as it just felt awkward and slow winding in such a large circle. The option was always there however if the anchor was too stubborn.

 

[charles_reed]

I know the technique and 30 years ago it wouldn't have been a problem. But nearing 60 and unfit i'm starting to struggle !
Chris

Wait till you're 75 and arthritic - in fact I tend to use 8" in preference to 12", the latter only for final trimming.
By far the best answer (for me) is to use a non-overlap headsail - and the boat goes faster to windward because your tacking angle is considerably smaller.

 

[Resolution]

By far the best answer (for me) is to use a non-overlap headsail - and the boat goes faster to windward because your tacking angle is considerably smaller.

+1
The OP mentions a 150% genoa. I suspect that this is an old design sail in Dacron, and has sagged out a lot. So pointing is worse, tacking required more often, and there is a lot of canvas to winch in. Hardest work I ever had racing was on a Contessa 32 with this sort of set up, plus a skipper who slammed through the tack as fast as he could.
Perhaps a new smaller genoa would improve everthing?

 

[Grumpybear]

+1
The OP mentions a 150% genoa. I suspect that this is an old design sail in Dacron, and has sagged out a lot. So pointing is worse, tacking required more often, and there is a lot of canvas to winch in. Hardest work I ever had racing was on a Contessa 32 with this sort of set up, plus a skipper who slammed through the tack as fast as he could.
Perhaps a new smaller genoa would improve everthing?

Hear hear. Last year we changed from ten year old 150% to new 135% and the difference is amazing.

 

[jwilson]

Indeed, but you don't tend to meet gorillas so big that the instruction, "Grind that on as hard as you can" will cause damage in the circumstances I describe. If there were three foot long winch handles kicking around, I'd be concerned.

I once crewed in one race for someone I soon found to be a bit of a plonker. I was hauling up the main halliard to set the main just before the start, and I asked him "....how tight?" expecting him to look up at the sail shape. "As hard as you can get it up" he said.

I set it so I thought it looked about right for the very windy day. He then asked me if it was as hard on as I could get it, and I told him it looked right to me. "Just wind it as hard as you can" he said. I did (I was stronger then). Big bang, winch flew overboard, mainsail sagged down. He wanted to give up the race but I showed him how to jury rig it satisfactorily.

 

[Simondjuk]

Nice!

It's certainly not an instruction I'd ever give on my 40 footer, or most lines on any boat for that matter. About the only time it's appropriate is on a runner on a big boat. The question then arises as to whether or not the crew member can manage to ease it back off in a controlled fashion which doesn't shudder the rig.

 

[Jamesuk]

Whilst grinding our 150% genoa in the other day (for about the 6th time that afternoon) I was wondering why no one makes a winch handle with a longer arm for extra leverage. There is plenty of space for it on the boat and I cannot believe the extra engineering would significantly add to the cost. I have one with the double handle so 2 people can use it at the same time but the arms length is identical to a single.
There is probably going to be an embarrassingly simple answer but I can't see it !
Chris

Sounds like your not winching in properly or you need a bigger drum

 

[PetiteFleur]

Lewmar? <sniff> One has Andersens.

I agree - Andersens are superb, especially if they are too large for the size of boat!

 

[Storyline]

I am told, by some friends, that once you give in and fit electric winches, a whole new world of easy sailing opens up.

Having a got a bigger boat a few years ago we now find the loadings are much more than we are used to. Short tacking is doable but not much fun. I thought the answer would be to get bigger winches but maybe an electric conversion is the way to go. Does anyone know if these can be retro fitted to any winch providing you have room in the coamings ?

 

[blackdogsailing]

Does anyone know if these can be retro fitted to any winch providing you have room in the coamings ?

Unfortunately no. I can only speak for Lewmar but the older style winches cannot be.
Chris

 

[Storyline]

Unfortunately no. I can only speak for Lewmar but the older style winches cannot be.
Chris

Damm - we have Lewmar and also old ones. Anyway, they are not self tailers so they would probably not be suitable. So it is new winches + motors (or not!)

 

[SteveIOW]

I may be a bit thick but don't see how larger winches (suggestion above) would help, unless they have a lower gear ratio. For those, like me, who have old single speed winches where one complete turn of the handle equals one complete turn of the winch drum it would seem to me that a larger drum would decrease the mechanical advantage. If, for example, you were to increase the drum radius to the length of the handle there would be no mechanical advantage at all.

Many years ago I had a very small Caprice sailing cruiser. It had jib/genoa winches but times were hard and I couldn't afford a handle (sob,sob). When windy it was important to sit out to windward much like you would in a dinghy. Moving to leward to winch in the jib was not a good idea. Then there was a light bulb moment. We took the jib sheet round the leward winch, then it went across the cockpit to and round the windward winch and thence to a cleat. To sheet in you just kept some tension on the sheet tail with one hand and pulled the part crossing the cockpit in an aft direction with the other. You then released the part across the cockpit whilst, at the same time, taking up the slack on the windward winch. It was like having a 3 foot long winch handle and all done from windward side. Never did bother buying a handle. Only downside was a jib sheet separating the forward part of the cockpit from the aft.

 

[mjcoon]

I may be a bit thick but don't see how larger winches (suggestion above) would help, unless they have a lower gear ratio. For those, like me, who have old single speed winches where one complete turn of the handle equals one complete turn of the winch drum it would seem to me that a larger drum would decrease the mechanical advantage. If, for example, you were to increase the drum radius to the length of the handle there would be no mechanical advantage at all.

Many years ago I had a very small Caprice sailing cruiser. It had jib/genoa winches but times were hard and I couldn't afford a handle (sob,sob). When windy it was important to sit out to windward much like you would in a dinghy. Moving to leward to winch in the jib was not a good idea. Then there was a light bulb moment. We took the jib sheet round the leward winch, then it went across the cockpit to and round the windward winch and thence to a cleat. To sheet in you just kept some tension on the sheet tail with one hand and pulled the part crossing the cockpit in an aft direction with the other. You then released the part across the cockpit whilst, at the same time, taking up the slack on the windward winch. It was like having a 3 foot long winch handle and all done from windward side. Never did bother buying a handle. Only downside was a jib sheet separating the forward part of the cockpit from the aft.

It's always nice to join in, even nine years after everyone else! BTW "oldvarnish" of post #16 and quoted in post #55 was Paul Heiney. I have not seen him post here under that name for years and have no idea if he has another alias.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

" This winch handle fits all standard winches. It is 250mm (10″) long so you get 25% more power than with an 8″ winch handle. "

Quoted blurb for floating winch handle. 25% extra for free then ! Is the maths right ?