Why don't they make longer winch handles ?

[Daydream believer]

Think laterally
Get a self tacking jib set up
You should be able out tack any similar sized genoa rigged boat all day long single handed & not have to loose way waiting for the crew to complete the job

Re longer handles-
if the winch is near the rail you may find yourself rapping knuckles on the guardrail

 

[lustyd]

It's worth putting some thought into what stresses a longer handle might create on the winches too. On smaller winches the bolts will likely be closer together attaching to the boat so accidentally leaning on the winch might lever it out of the deck. Internal components might be specified to deal with a certain level of stress too which a longer handle might allow you to breach without noticing. These may be unlikely but worth a little thought before making a DIY handle. I've always thought it might be nice to have a ratcheting handle to save going all the way around. My boat has these but they are built in and on very small 1 speed winches.

Most reports of those electric handles seem to be good, maybe they are worth a try and cheaper than new winches.

 

[Robert Wilson]

In a race a couple of years ago (as reported in 2012) both my primary winches failed just after the start. Blew up to 39 knots most of the race.
No problem. "Mike", who had never sailed in his life just pulled in the genoa sheets, without any mechanical assistance. He is truly a strong lad !!! It didn't occur to me to tell him we normally use winches..................

As it happens, my winches are too close to my guard-rails for longer handles.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's worth putting some thought into what stresses a longer handle might create on the winches too. On smaller winches the bolts will likely be closer together attaching to the boat so accidentally leaning on the winch might lever it out of the deck. Internal components might be specified to deal with a certain level of stress too which a longer handle might allow you to breach without noticing.

Longer handles require smaller forces. That's rather the point of them. Furthermore, the torque on the winch mountings is at a maximum when it's just taking the force from the sheet; winching reduces it.

 

[Daydream believer]

Longer handles require smaller forces. That's rather the point of them. Furthermore, the torque on the winch mountings is at a maximum when it's just taking the force from the sheet; winching reduces it.

Just because it is a cold Saturday afternoon & raining & I have nothing better to do than argue ---Soooo!

Depends on what cycle of the circle the handle is at
Moving away from the load --yes
Moving towards the load - No
At top dead or bottom centre additional side forces apply

So I would suggest your statement is only 25% correct

Any structural engineers want to comment????

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just because it is a cold Saturday afternoon & raining & I have nothing better to do than argue ---Soooo!

Depends on what cycle of the circle the handle is at
Moving away from the load --yes
Moving towards the load - No
At top dead or bottom centre additional side forces apply

So I would suggest your statement is only 25% correct

Any structural engineers want to comment????

I'm not sure what you think changes. When the winch is pulling in the sheet at a constant rate, the torque applied by sheet and handle to drum must be more or less equal. In fact there will be a small net torque applied in the direction of the turn to overcome friction, and that will be transmitted to the mounting.

That's torque. As far as linear forces go, then yes, as the handle turns the forces in the direction of the sheet and at right angles vary sinusoidally. However, the magnitude of the varying force is inversely proportional to the length of the winch handle because (see above) the torque applied is constant.

Want some figures? OK, let's imagine an 8" diameter drum with 500N sheet tension. Ignoring friction, an 8" handle will need a pull of 250N and a 10" handle will need a pull of 200N.

For an 8" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 250N (handle pull directly away) to 750N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 250N one way to 250N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

For a 10" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 300N (handle pull directly away) to 700N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 200N one way to 200N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

In both cases the maximum reaction at the base is when the handle is pulling in the same direction as (but not collinear with) the sheet, and it's less for the longer handle. Here it is in graphical form. You'll see that the maximum combined forces - inline, sideways and total - are all greater for the shorter handle.

 

[Sybarite]

Simple : http://www.acetoolonline.com/Milwaukee-0721-21-Cordless-Right-Angle-Drill-M28-p/mil-0721-21.htm

 

[Daydream believer]

I'm not sure what you think changes. When the winch is pulling in the sheet at a constant rate, the torque applied by sheet and handle to drum must be more or less equal. In fact there will be a small net torque applied in the direction of the turn to overcome friction, and that will be transmitted to the mounting.

That's torque. As far as linear forces go, then yes, as the handle turns the forces in the direction of the sheet and at right angles vary sinusoidally. However, the magnitude of the varying force is inversely proportional to the length of the winch handle because (see above) the torque applied is constant.

Want some figures? OK, let's imagine a 4" diameter drum with 500N sheet tension. Ignoring friction, an 8" handle will need a pull of 250N and a 10" handle will need a pull of 200N.

For an 8" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 250N (handle pull directly away) to 750N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 250N one way to 250N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

For a 10" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 300N (handle pull directly away) to 700N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 200N one way to 200N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

In both cases the maximum reaction at the base is when the handle is pulling in the same direction as (but not collinear with) the sheet, and it's less for the longer handle. Here it is in graphical form. You'll see that the maximum combined forces - inline, sideways and total - are all greater for the shorter handle.

View attachment 36871

Actually, whilst you sound plausible But you are trying to blind me with science
Incidentally I have read your first post again & you refer to winch mountings & these are offset from the centre
What I think you are doing is applying torque to the centre of the drum & the rotational forces around it ( & yes you did say torque in you earlier comment
your calcs are slightly wrong as you are not calculating the forces correctly
The lever (handle) is pivoted at the centre. The load is ( assuming a 100 dia drum) is 50mm away from the centre
So whilst you are calculating the load on the end of the handle you are omitting the other force at the edge of the drum.
hence when you apply the linear force at the handle end you are also applying a linear force ( not really linear & i think we both accept that)
to the circumfrence of the drum. This force has to be added to the other force from the handle.
that is the force applied by the sheet.

If you take the simple detail of a pulley ( which in effect the winch is) you apply a 100n force one side you need a similar force the other so the load on the pulley fixing effectively doubles to 200n. If you tied a knot in the rope to the pulley so no downward pull is needed to counteract the force then the force on the top is back to 100n ie the winch in the stationary mode

 

[mjcoon]

Actually, whilst you sound plausible But you are trying to blind me with science

And also, I think, assuming a single-speed direct-drive winch.

Otherwise you could be turning the handle in the opposite direction to the rotation of the drum.

Mike.

 

[lustyd]

Longer handles require smaller forces. That's rather the point of them. Furthermore, the torque on the winch mountings is at a maximum when it's just taking the force from the sheet; winching reduces it.

No, you're looking at it backwards. For the same force applied to a longer handle, the force will be greater at the winch end. As I said, if you lean on it, there will be more pressure on the mountings because of this extra leverage. If something is stuck then you'll be putting more force on it, and hence more likely to break it.

In normal operation the force at the winch would be the same for the same movement, but I wasn't talking about normal operation. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[Stork_III]

I'm not sure what you think changes. When the winch is pulling in the sheet at a constant rate, the torque applied by sheet and handle to drum must be more or less equal. In fact there will be a small net torque applied in the direction of the turn to overcome friction, and that will be transmitted to the mounting.

That's torque. As far as linear forces go, then yes, as the handle turns the forces in the direction of the sheet and at right angles vary sinusoidally. However, the magnitude of the varying force is inversely proportional to the length of the winch handle because (see above) the torque applied is constant.

Want some figures? OK, let's imagine a 4" diameter drum with 500N sheet tension. Ignoring friction, an 8" handle will need a pull of 250N and a 10" handle will need a pull of 200N.

For an 8" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 250N (handle pull directly away) to 750N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 250N one way to 250N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

For a 10" handle the net force in line with the sheet varies from 300N (handle pull directly away) to 700N (handle pulling directly towards) and the sideways force varies from 200N one way to 200N the other. Net torque throughout is zero.

In both cases the maximum reaction at the base is when the handle is pulling in the same direction as (but not collinear with) the sheet, and it's less for the longer handle. Here it is in graphical form. You'll see that the maximum combined forces - inline, sideways and total - are all greater for the shorter handle.

View attachment 36871

Your forces are all wrong. 8" handle in your example is equivalent to 16" dia compared to 4" dia drum. hence forces on handle are half. I have 43 or 30 geared winches so even less force required on handle. You should get some geared winches.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Actually, whilst you sound plausible But you are trying to blind me with science

No, I'm just arguing with science. Can't help it if you're dazzled.

Incidentally I have read your first post again & you refer to winch mountings & these are offset from the centre
What I think you are doing is applying torque to the centre of the drum & the rotational forces around it

I don't understand. Perhaps you could explain a little more?

your calcs are slightly wrong as you are not calculating the forces correctly
The lever (handle) is pivoted at the centre. The load is ( assuming a 100 dia drum) is 50mm away from the centre
So whilst you are calculating the load on the end of the handle you are omitting the other force at the edge of the drum.

No. Both forces are included. In the diagram I posted the in-line force is calculated as

sheet tension (500N) + inline component of applied force (200 or 250 cos(angle of handle))

hence when you apply the linear force at the handle end you are also applying a linear force ( not really linear & i think we both accept that)
to the circumfrence of the drum. This force has to be added to the other force from the handle.
that is the force applied by the sheet.

Done, as noted above.

If you take the simple detail of a pulley ( which in effect the winch is) you apply a 100n force one side you need a similar force the other so the load on the pulley fixing effectively doubles to 200n. If you tied a knot in the rope to the pulley so no downward pull is needed to counteract the force then the force on the top is back to 100n ie the winch in the stationary mode

You need the same force on the other side only if you are applying it at the same radius, and it doubles the reaction only if you apply it directly back in the direction of the sheet; if, as you say, you treat the winch as a pulley. Apply the force further out and you need less of it. Think see-saw.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And also, I think, assuming a single-speed direct-drive winch.
Otherwise you could be turning the handle in the opposite direction to the rotation of the drum.

Good point. The basic result will stay the same, though: longer handles need smaller forces than shorter handles. Whatever the gearing is, the torques and torque reactions stay the same.

 

[JumbleDuck]

No, you're looking at it backwards. For the same force applied to a longer handle, the force will be greater at the winch end. As I said, if you lean on it, there will be more pressure on the mountings because of this extra leverage. If something is stuck then you'll be putting more force on it, and hence more likely to break it.

For the same force applied to the longer handle the force will be precisely the same at the winch end. That nice Mr Newton wrote a law about it - action and reaction. You'll get more torque, but since the winch, for a given load and gearing, requires a constant torque, a longer handle means you need apply less force. Like I said.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Your forces are all wrong. 8" handle in your example is equivalent to 16" dia compared to 4" dia drum. hence forces on handle are half. I have 43 or 30 geared winches so even less force required on handle. You should get some geared winches.

Sod it. I'll go back and change the drum diameter to 8". Well spotted.

 

[Daydream believer]

You need the same force on the other side only if you are applying it at the same radius, and it doubles the reaction only if you apply it directly back in the direction of the sheet; if, as you say, you treat the winch as a pulley. Apply the force further out and you need less of it. Think see-saw.

As with the pulley the weight on the bearing surface of the pulley or winch drum opposite the line of force of the sheet never changes (I think we both agree to ignore friction at this stage )
Just because the force from further out is less due to the dynamics of leverage the force at the winch circumfrence is not reduced. Just pulling/pushing on the handle does not reduce that. infact applying a force on the handle ( In opp direction to sheet pull) increases the shear force on the mountings . I still say that your comment that In fact there will be a small net torque applied in the direction of the turn to overcome friction, and that will be transmitted to the mounting" is not entirely correct.

Using a practical example - always better than theory
In my first boat ( a Stella) the class rules used to stipulate racing boats had to have viking winches ( I still have the 2 originals in my shed). These had a breaking load of 1.25 Tonnes.; according to Viking from Leigh on Sea
The class rules had to be changed ( & i went to the meeting where rule was changed)because, when under load, as the handle ( a bottom action ratchet) was pumped the drums used to shear off this seemed to happen at the time the crew was winching causing some minor accidents. It did not happen once the winch was left alone with only the weight of the genoa on it. Pushing the handle foreward increased the load on the spindle opposite the pull of the sheet. It also caused the screws holding the base to distort - suggesting increase in torque But on reflection I could not prove that as the stub below the base sat in a round hole this distortion could have happened any time

 

[JumbleDuck]

As with the pulley the weight on the bearing surface of the pulley or winch drum opposite the line of force of the sheet never changes (I think we both agree to ignore friction at this stage )
Just because the force from further out is less due to the dynamics of leverage the force at the winch circumfrence is not reduced.

Erm, yes. That's the point of levers.

Try a little though experiment, if you will, and imagine a 100kg person sitting 2m from the pivot of a seesaw. They can be balanced by (a) another 100kg person 2m out on the other side or (b) a 50kg person 4m out on the other side.

What is the vertical reaction under the pivot in each case?

The class rules had to be changed ( & i went to the meeting where rule was changed)because, when under load, as the handle ( a bottom action ratchet) was pumped the drums used to shear off this seemed to happen at the time the crew was winching causing some minor accidents. It did not happen once the winch was left alone with only the weight of the genoa on it.

That sounds like an issue with internal forces, not mounting reactions, and winches which just weren't strong enough. Nothing to do with changing handle lengths.

 

[lustyd]

For the same force applied to the longer handle the force will be precisely the same at the winch end. That nice Mr Newton wrote a law about it - action and reaction. You'll get more torque, but since the winch, for a given load and gearing, requires a constant torque, a longer handle means you need apply less force. Like I said.

Do you really think that or is this post a joke? If you're going to be quoting Newton you ought to have a better understanding of physics or make your jokes more obvious.

EDIT sorry I see you were joking as your next post says the opposite

 

[tyce]

Simple : http://www.acetoolonline.com/Milwaukee-0721-21-Cordless-Right-Angle-Drill-M28-p/mil-0721-21.htm

Not simple, I am a strong heftyish chap and I am sure I can put considerably more torque on a winch handle than that drill could on a winch. If your winch is to small it means its to small.

 

[Goldie]

There is probably going to be an embarrassingly simple answer but I can't see it !

There is: http://www.easywinch.com/index.htm It was cheaper than replacing our 9 winches! Use the normal handle when loads are low and for quick winching but when it gets harder, this gadget is worth its weight.