Why do some of us expect the RNLI to act as a marine recovery service?

[Robin]

I understand your case well Robin. I read it the first time you posted it and found it very thought provoking.

However if the French can succesfully run their life saving service without resorting to out of date boats and insufficient stations (your scenario) I'm sure we can.

Just to put some flesh on the bones of my opinion, we were anchored off Brownsea Island one year and in one 24 hour period FIVE power/speed boats went past us being towed by an orange boat with a blue flashing light.

No charge.

Whilst in Granville a week later (and I guess you know what the rush is like when the cill drops ... 30? boats charge out) we saw a similar number of boats being towed back in over a 7 day period ... all by other pleasure boats.

Nobody died.

Anyway I knew that I was going to be polarised on this so enuf said

Whilst the crew on the French Lifeboat that took over to tow us in were a great bunch of lads (and very jolly they were too as they finished our best scotch and fruit cake we gave them for their lunch alongside), I would not put them quite on the same level as the RNLI guys on a similar sized offshore lifeboat, nor was the boat itself. I might be wrong but I don't think there are anywhere near as many lifeboat stations along the French coasts as here, at least not those with offshore capability. I would certainly not rate some of their smaller boats that we have seen, some of which are no more than cabin cruisers with a flashing blue light on top.

To add to my story and make the point I don't ask for help lightly, I have previously sailed a Liz 30 I owned back in the early '80s from a berth inside Cherbourg Marina to alongside at Poole Quay without an engine at all (busted camshaft), sailed a chartered Westerly Conway with a corporate do out of Cherbourg Marina and back to Lymington Yacht Haven without engine (starter motor) and sailed a Trident 24 back from Dartmouth direct to a mooring in Poole (stuck valves). I did need a tow from a nearby yacht when our Westerly 33 engine seized totally in the entrance to Poole, with no wind and anchoring was out of the question as Truckline Ferry was on it's way in and we were directly in it's path and drifting towards the chain ferry too. By the same token we have towed others many times here in the UK, in the Channel Islands and in France.

 

[fireball]

But how much time does it really take to pass a location on to the RNLI/Seastart? It's a relatively fixed cost to pay for a CG station (broadly, building maintenance + shift wages) and if there are enough resources to keep CG stations operating 24/7 in some form, I can't see that it adds any additional cost to route these calls.

Trivial calls tend not to be in gale force winds and high seas (otherwise they wouldn't be trivial!), so would fall into times when the CG have more spare (fixed) capacity anyway.



It's always rational to assume irrational actions from the government (I sound like Tim!), but trivial calls which involve little CG effort and attract little to no media attention are very unlikely to attract the attention of any rational politicians. They have better things to do, like kissing babies and fiddling the books..



Agreed.

I hear what you're saying, you and others are essentially agreeing to using the RNLI as a breakdown service for any matter that the skipper feels he can't deal with.
I don't agree with that - probably something that stems from my first experience of calling for help ...

I'd capsized the club topper - in the channel just outside the club ... ebb tide ... the boat had turned turtle and I was (I realised later) in shock - I climbed on to the upturned hull and shouted/waved for help ..
My father (being the caring sort) was watching from the clubhouse - probably with a pint ...
Some other club members started to launch a rescue mission ... and continued despite my father suggesting they leave me to work it out for myself .... (said he was the caring sort!)

Sure enough ... by the time the other guys had managed to sort out a tender/oars and get launched I had got over my initial shock and got the boat back upright and carried on sailing ...

my Dad was right ... I wasn't in any real danger and it was better to leave me to learn my lesson - which is why I won't call for help until I have tried to sort myself out - and I firmly believe that (unless life is in danger) others should do likewise.

 

[Flying Penguin]

I hear what you're saying, you and others are essentially agreeing to using the RNLI as a breakdown service for any matter that the skipper feels he can't deal with.
I don't agree with that - probably something that stems from my first experience of calling for help ...

That's not really a fair representation at all, in fact I'd almost go so far as to say it's a deliberate misrepresentation.

What I'm saying is that the only person placed to make the call as to whether what is happening is within him and his crew's capability to fix, and that the skipper should be free to make that call early enough to prevent a "minor inconvenience" becoming a life threatening incident. The decision prior to the call should be as simple as "can I fix this myself, and if so, can I do it before the situation becomes dangerous?". Keeping plugging away at finding a solution until it becomes a dangerous situation because you just realised that you'll get a whacking great bill shouldn't be something that the system encourages.

That's not to say that every call is justified, but that you can't impose fines or charges on them, except where calls are made maliciously and falsely, without breaking the principle of emergency help being free at the point of use.

Never mind the loss of support for the RNLI if, as others have said, it became known that they were charging people because they "should have known better"

 

[fireball]

That's not really a fair representation at all, in fact I'd almost go so far as to say it's a deliberate misrepresentation.

Yup - I'm against charging for the RNLI service too ...

As I said before - it's not a case of FIXING the problem - it's a case of getting around it ...
90% (statistics can be made up to backup this figure ) of cases are for engine failure - that in itself is rarely life threatening - the fact that the engine isn't working properly isn't cause to call the CG for help - that should be reserved for the inability to get yourself to a safe haven - and not just because you're not going to get to your chosen destination in the timescale you'd hoped for.

I've just remembered another example of self help ... a sailing principle was racing in his solo from our club. I was in the patrol boat with SWMBO ... he capsized and upon righting realised he'd lost his glasses - we offered assistance (being the patrol boat that was our duty) - the only assistance required was to navigate for him - which we duly did - from 6' behind his transom... his inability to see didn't prevent him from sailing - he just needed to know the right way to go ...

Thinking on that perhaps there is a service the CG could pass on the engine failure calls too (or have resource to deal with) - to verbally assist the "casualty" in surmounting their problems without the need to call out the RNLI all the time.

 

[snowleopard]

Don't assume that just because a lifeboat goes out the skipper asked for help. I reported some structural damage to the CG as a heads-up in case things got worse and they sent out a lifeboat overriding my insistence that I didn't need one.

 

[DogWatch]

crew are mostly volunteers and mainly do it for the action \ excitement

No, no they don't

 

[Bilgediver]

IMHO the RNLI should only come to our assistance if there is a genuine risk to life or danger to shipping.
So what’s all this about the highest percentage of call-outs (shouts) being due to engine failure?
If you are a yacht sail.
If you are a MoBo you have two engines ….. and if you don’t then you will have an emergency / auxiliary engine...... won't you?
So why do we consider it standard practice to rely on the RNLI for what I would class as stupidity?

So they say in one part of Scotland.......Then you look at the station records and see the number of shouts increasing year by year.....Then you analyse the records and find that the biggest percentage of calls and the biggest increase is nothing to do with engine failure. Nothing even to do with boating.....It is rescuing folk from an island they walked to at low tide and are now trapped!!!!!

Can we trust the figures!!!!!!

 

[Flying Penguin]

Yup - I'm against charging for the RNLI service too ...

As I said before - it's not a case of FIXING the problem - it's a case of getting around it ...
90% (statistics can be made up to backup this figure ) of cases are for engine failure - that in itself is rarely life threatening - the fact that the engine isn't working properly isn't cause to call the CG for help - that should be reserved for the inability to get yourself to a safe haven - and not just because you're not going to get to your chosen destination in the timescale you'd hoped for.

I've just remembered another example of self help ... a sailing principle was racing in his solo from our club. I was in the patrol boat with SWMBO ... he capsized and upon righting realised he'd lost his glasses - we offered assistance (being the patrol boat that was our duty) - the only assistance required was to navigate for him - which we duly did - from 6' behind his transom... his inability to see didn't prevent him from sailing - he just needed to know the right way to go ...

Thinking on that perhaps there is a service the CG could pass on the engine failure calls too (or have resource to deal with) - to verbally assist the "casualty" in surmounting their problems without the need to call out the RNLI all the time.

So if you are going to pass on that sort of call, who to? Sea Start only covers part of the south coast, who else is going to pick up the rest of the country? Never mind the fact that even on the south coast, if you are more than 3 miles from port, assistance is "not guaranteed" (their words).

So unless we have a whole network of local agreements with commercial repair services of varying quality and capability, if there are even enough services to cover it, we are back to looking at the RNLI as the only non governmental body with the capability.

Am I missing any other alternatives?

Perhaps the answer is for the RNLI to offer mechanical advice over VHF as a first action, only sending out a lifeboat if the situation requires it? It reduces the co-ordination effort, may reduce lifeboat deployment and is not state funded (so not subject to regular cuts). Other than not conforming to the marine hard man act of only going to sea if you can craft a new driveshaft out of a whale bone using only your index finger, I'm not really seeing a disadvantage.

 

[fireball]

So if you are going to pass on that sort of call, who to? Sea Start only covers part of the south coast, who else is going to pick up the rest of the country? Never mind the fact that even on the south coast, if you are more than 3 miles from port, assistance is "not guaranteed" (their words).

So unless we have a whole network of local agreements with commercial repair services of varying quality and capability, if there are even enough services to cover it, we are back to looking at the RNLI as the only non governmental body with the capability.

Am I missing any other alternatives?

Perhaps the answer is for the RNLI to offer mechanical advice over VHF as a first action, only sending out a lifeboat if the situation requires it? It reduces the co-ordination effort, may reduce lifeboat deployment and is not state funded (so not subject to regular cuts). Other than not conforming to the marine hard man act of only going to sea if you can craft a new driveshaft out of a whale bone using only your index finger, I'm not really seeing a disadvantage.

Who said anything about mechanical advice?!
I've already said I doubt I could fix our engine whilst underway ...
There are other options - but perhaps ppl are so blinded by the fact that the engine has gone US that they can't see them ...

Around here the CG seem to (only seem to - I have no stats) call the RNLI at the drop of a hat - perhaps around here at least there needs to be a coaching service to talk the skipper through the situation a bit more thoroughly before committing a rescue service to them....
and perhaps a bit more emphasis on education for the skipper prior to the event ... ?

 

[Flying Penguin]

Mechanical advice/coaching service, same purpose for slightly different stage of the solution. Checking they have done the basics to try get the engine working may quite legitimately come before talking them through helping themselves to a safe haven. But that's not the approach they currently take, at least on the south coast, as you say.

As for education, those that want it will seek it (I do and do), those that don't, won't. That will always be the case unless we put licences/enforceable qualifications in for pleasure boaters. I don't think we want that...

 

[[2068]]

Thing is, for me, Sea Start will only cover a small set of circumstances which fall between fixing it myself and a full blown RNLI callout. E.g. minor stuff like belts and filters I will either fix myself, or drop down to one engine and limp onwards. Fixing things in the enginebay in a mobo in a swell or chop is not ideal. If I'm offshore, or rip off one outdrive on a container, it's going to be the RNLI anyway.

Having said that, a tow service would come in handy sometimes. A few years back in a single engined mobo, I accidentally selected "reverse" when slowing down from the plane. You could hear the sound that the shift cones made coming together from half a mile away, and I was well and truly stuck in reverse. Dropped anchor, not too choppy, hopped into the (warm) water, popped off the drive cover, and tried to move the shift arm with a plumbers wrench, but no banana: it was a choice of entering Cowes backwards, or calling out someone. Hmmm. Who is that practicing in the bay, a mile away? ... the RNLI, who were happy to tow us into Cowes once they had finished their practice session.

Needed a lift out and a session with some sort of large hammer to free up the outdrive in the end.

 

[fireball]

The most I've heard CG do around here is ask the casualty if they can anchor and occasionally they ask if they can sail ... if the CG are busy then fair enough - there's little more they can do (or perhaps be expected to do). Next is usually notification that xx lifeboat is on its way ...
Sometimes - and seems to be normally outside the Solent - the CG will put an allships out asking if there is someone able to assist (with a tow)..

In SeaRush's thread I listed the 10 lifeboat stations within a 30 mile stretch of water... I know the Solent is a busy place but that is a huge concentration of rescue services - is that replicated or exceeded anywhere else?

If the casualty isn't in immediate danger - and most of the time they don't appear to be - then it strikes me that there is the opportunity to coach the skipper in checking the obvious...
But the ultimate is in getting skippers to take responsibility for their own life/vessel prior to calling out for help..

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Interested to know why.

If the French Model is wrong why don't we see countless bodies being bought ashore as the casualties were too concerned at the towing cost to call for help.

As you know there is NO charge if the callout is deemed to be life saving.

Why change? We have a system that works so why change it to the French system when we dont have to do so? IMO ours is a better way.

And the RNLI isnt the only charity doing this sort of work. When I got knocked off my motorcycle, the helicopter that took me into hospital was a charity one from the Welsh Air Ambulance. No charge even though they could have recovered it from the insurers of the stupid young woman who hit me.

But where do we stop this idea of charging. Should plod charge? Should we go back to the days when the fire brigade charged - after all if your house catches fire , you've done something stupid.

 

[Litotes]

Around here the CG seem to (only seem to - I have no stats) call the RNLI at the drop of a hat - perhaps around here at least there needs to be a coaching service to talk the skipper through the situation a bit more thoroughly before committing a rescue service to them....
and perhaps a bit more emphasis on education for the skipper prior to the event ... ?

I suspect that the Solent may be a bit of a "special case". This is not intended to denigrate the place or its sailors, but it probably attracts far more occasional sailors and people who really don't know much about boats but fancy "having a go" than other areas that are either less accessible from London or less glamorous. (The east coast, for example, is wonderfully unglamorous and that is one of its many virtues) The Solent is also very busy with a huge variety of nautical activity - commercial, recreational and governmental.

Thus the coastguards probably have to deal with a very high volume of traffic and simply can't afford to take chances. In my neck of the woods I really couldn't honestly say that sailors routinely cry for help at the drop of a hat or that the coastguards are trigger happy when it comes to calling out the lifeboat. On the other hand, I have often heard them calmly and patiently talk a bewildered sailor through a problem, whilst also calling for vessels in the area that may be able to provide more information or assistance - a call that is often answered. I really can't see what more they could do.

 

[fireball]

Perhaps it is - as you say - it could be peculiar to the Solent ... certainly seems less calls when we go to other areas ...

I say - would you mind doing a radio check please - I haven't done one for at least 30 minutes ....

 

[Litotes]

I say - would you mind doing a radio check please - I haven't done one for at least 30 minutes ....

I hardly hear any.

 

[fireball]

I hardly hear any.

I'd check your equipment then!

 

[Litotes]

With that attitude, I'm afraid you wont fit very well into the YBW forums.

Well, I certainly wouldn't like to fall victim to the gleeful post mortem brigade if I were ever to make a public fool of myself, although I suppose there would be an abundance of excellent advice, very freely offered!

 

[Litotes]

I'd check your equipment then!

I do - but not with the coastguard. It works even better than ever with the excellent antenna recently supplied by Salty John.

 

[Juan Twothree]

The bit I have an issue with is describing the vessel as a casualty vessel in the first place...

It's not used to imply any criticism, it's just easier in comms between CG and lifeboat to describe the vessel we're going to assist as the "casualty", or "casualty vessel".