Why do some of us expect the RNLI to act as a marine recovery service?

[Robin]

I've told this tale before on here but it might help to do so again.

We were towed in by a French Lifeboat having suffered engine failure. That tow cost us 750 euros. How could this be, we were a very slippery sailing yacht we could sail, we had good anchor gear, we could anchor surely.

The above is the apparent situation to which many (probably including me in the past) might have said harrumph, sort it yourself.

The reality was that we were sailing from Camaret to Glenans, had sailed as far as our first waypoint to the Raz De Sein albeit slowly, and then the wind vanished totally. We started the engine (a super reliable, professionally serviced Yanmar 44hp) and after 5 minutes the alarms went off so we had to shut it down. We found the engine had dropped all the freshwater coolant into the bilges. As fast as I replaced the water, it came back out but I could not see from where. We tried sailing again but there really was no wind at all, yet there was a big swell rolling the boat and any wind out of the sails, we had no steerage and went round in circles quite often. It was spring tides with about two more hours of south going to run which carried us rapidly through past the Raz. After two hours we still had no wind and were then being carried back towards the Raz by the new north going tide, this time though the tide setting towards the rocks not away from them. It was too deep to anchor and the tide was running at 5kts. We needed a tow. I called the French CG (not a Mayday or even a Pan) and said we really need a tow clear of where we are. The CG tried a big catamaran headed north but they declined to help, it would have been a problem in the swell to pull us. The CG then arranged for a fishing boat to give us a tow, a huge fishing boat I might add. The fishing boat was very helpful and towed us clear, if a little quickly as they towed at 9kts and we hit 14 on the surfs behind them! Anyway, unknown to us the fishing boat and the CG between them had decided to swap the tow with the Audierne Lifeboat and shouted to us that 'another boat was coming to tow us to Audierne' and they dropped the tow. The boat that arrived was the Audierne Lifeboat, the first we knew about it. The Lifeboat towed us into St Evette anchorage outside of Audierne and put us on a buoy next to them and went through the paperwork, explaining that we would be charged 750 euros for their callout as no lives were at risk, only property and we could claim on our insurance. Well that was true once they arrived, but I would dispute that was the case when the fishing boat gave us the tow, and remember we did not call for a lifeboat we just asked for a tow out of the danger area. Anyway the lifeboat guys were wonderful, they later towed us into Audierne when there was enough water to get there and even arranged for an engineer to meet us in the marina. The Harbour master in Audierne helped us onto the hammerhead and straight off said no charge for the night, beat that in the UK! The engineer arrived and between us (one filling water, the other looking for the leak) we found a drain tap that I didn't know existed not even mentioned in the manual, and hidden under the exhaust riser at the rear of the engine had fallen out. Access to this was through a hatch in the port stern cabin and I could only fill water via the engine access from the saloon. Fifty euros later and we had a working engine again.

Could we have helped ourselves more? I think we made the right call, but the real help was from the trawler who got nothing for their trouble other than our thanks. Should we have simply told the lifeboat to go away, we didn't want them now as we were clear of the strong tides taking us towards the rocks? The lifeboat had already come out and was going back to where we needed to go if we were to find an engineer, because my suspicion at that time was that we had lost a core plug from the block. Hindsight is wonderful, but I could have put a cork in the drain tap hole.

So do I think the RNLI should charge? NO NO NO!

 

[fireball]

I think that's just one of those cliches that do the rounds but have no real basis in fact. A "mind jerk". I have certainly never met anyone with that attitude. But after more than 50 years on the water (some of it professionally) I am uncomfortably aware that I am still quite capable of getting it all wrong and, maybe, some day, joining the ranks of the much derided "idiots" - in which case I shall be very grateful for the kind of unconditional and non judgmental help that is freely given by the RNLI.

I don't think this thread was aimed at criticising the RNLI or the way they operate. They certainly don't need to be judgemental - the CG will "have a word" if necessary with whoever has been rescued.

I think one of the problems is that they are so helpful and cheerful.

A novice yachtsman I know (not me honest) called them when getting worried in a wind over tide scenario after the engine packed up. They made a pan pan call, and in the blink of an eye a rib appeared and they were being offered a tow into harbour, they took it but tbh they didn't need to have.

That's the sort of behaviour we need to eliminate - ok, I don't know the exact situation and perhaps the skipper was right to make the call. But a large proportion of calls around the Solent each year are for engine failures on sailboats - usually when there is a suitable wind to sail somewhere.
DS skippers should know how to approach a buoy under sail and even how to anchor under sail. Getting into a marina berth may be a bit more tricky, but the marina staff are normally happy to oblige.

How times change.
A long tine ago was on a boat that we parked on top of springs on a rocky shoal just inside the western Solent. Stuck, dried out, one plank mildly stove in but only weeping, emptied water tank and all internal lead ballast, and on the night tide thx to a wee breeze were able to heel and sail off, scared, chastised and well messed up along the hull and rudder.
And later, the ex cox of the Yarmouth l/boat said " we wus watching", or words to that effect.

These days they would be standing 100 yards off for the 12 hours having deployed a small boat and a pump ... but only because the CG will have asked them to assist following a call to alert them ...

 

[Reverend Ludd]

That's the sort of behaviour we need to eliminate - ok, I don't know the exact situation and perhaps the skipper was right to make the call. But a large proportion of calls around the Solent each year are for engine failures on sailboats - usually when there is a suitable wind to sail somewhere.
DS skippers should know how to approach a buoy under sail and even how to anchor under sail. Getting into a marina berth may be a bit more tricky, but the marina staff are normally happy to oblige.

I don't really disagree but everyone has to start somewhere and with a lee shore (ish) wind over tide, no engine, sand bars outside the harbour entrance (this is the east coast) the boat occupancy were a bit scared.
I think what they wanted/expected was for someone to reassure them that they would keep a listen out for them and would be able to help if it went wrong.

I would not have called and berated them gently (some call it mocking) but it's done now.

 

[Searush]

The thing that really worries me is that lots of non sailing people donate and support the RNLI based on thinking that they are saving commercial fishermen and merchant ships - a very good cause.

However when they realise that a lot of their hard earned money is going towards saving pretty well off sailors things may change - if I were the RNLI I would be really concerned about this trend, particularly in these stretched times.

(snip).

The RNLI run beach patrols, hovercraft & inshore boats to cater for shore based casualties & regularly save the lives of swimmers & walkers caught out by tide or weather. Two men & their dog were rescued from the Wirral sands this week after getting lost in fog on a rising tide. They were lost for 3 hours & finally found when waist deep in the rising tide.

Yotties are relatively low in their statistics I believe.

 

[Bav34]

So do I think the RNLI should charge? NO NO NO!

Interested to know why.

If the French Model is wrong why don't we see countless bodies being bought ashore as the casualties were too concerned at the towing cost to call for help.

As you know there is NO charge if the callout is deemed to be life saving.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

One thing that we might consider is the role of the well known problem of people becoming goal oriented in an unusual situation. This can, quite easily, turn a non-threatening situation into one that is dangerous, or even fatal.

Because of my background, the best example I can give is a non-boaty one. No names or places, and no guarantee I have the details correct! However, many years ago, a group of people in Antarctica were on an island, at a well-supplied hut. They had food, shelter and fuel. The weather conditions changed for the worse, and the sea ice over which they had (perfectly safely) reached the hut began to deteriorate. They had dates by which they were supposed to be back at a main base, and of course, the main base offered creature comforts not available at the hut.

What happened was that they became fixed on the goal of reaching the main base, and took the unsafe decision to travel across the sea-ice. They were all lost.

The subsequent analysis was that they became so fixed on the goal of returning to the main station that they became inflexible in their thinking, and did not consider the perfectly safe course of staying where they were.

Now translated into boaty terms, might this not mean that someone planning on a passage from A to B can become fixated on the goal of getting to B, even though changed circumstances have made this an inappropriate or unsafe goal. Often in a difficult situation, the proper course of action is to re-evaluate your goals in the light of changed circumstances. But this kind of re-evaluation can be very hard, especially if people are tired, uncomfortable and at the edge of their skills.

I have an experience of this; suffering engine failure while attempting to head into wind and sea. It was INCREDIBLY difficult to force myself to reconsider our goals; to give up one goal in favour of another that was achievable with the resources now available. But we did it, and I am still here. At no time did I consider it right to call the Coastguard - in fact the reason I did not was because they might have tasked a lifeboat! But once we had made our decision to change our goal, we were not in any kind of danger, and I did not consider us in need of a lifeboat.

 

[fireball]

I don't really disagree but everyone has to start somewhere and with a lee shore (ish) wind over tide, no engine, sand bars outside the harbour entrance (this is the east coast) the boat occupancy were a bit scared.
I think what they wanted/expected was for someone to reassure them that they would keep a listen out for them and would be able to help if it went wrong.

I would not have called and berated them gently (some call it mocking) but it's done now.

Not quite the same - but requiring reassurance I can accept ... to a certain extent...

My first time down the Little Russell ended up with me towing a larger yacht when they suffered gearbox failure. No wind, but the tide was starting to run.
Our conversation with the Harbour Authorities over the VHF included their offering of sending out assistance - declined - all we needed and received was their watchful eye that we weren't standing into danger - and this was only because by ourselves we'd be alert and able to take action - but with a tow on the back our options are extremely limited - so best not get into danger to start with.

Granted, not all CGs are in a position to do this - but I did appreciate the offer of assistance yet only receiving the assistance requested (one of the dories came out to the harbour entrance to take over the tow).

Just knowing that there is someone there able to offer assistance is often all that is required - I hope that all skippers are ready and willing to standby another vessel who is having "difficulties". Not forgetting what is "difficulties" to them could be plain sailing to others.

 

[Bav34]

Just knowing that there is someone there able to offer assistance is often all that is required - I hope that all skippers are ready and willing to standby another vessel who is having "difficulties". Not forgetting what is "difficulties" to them could be plain sailing to others.

And that I think is the point. There IS someone there if you're deeply in the ****.

However if you're not, both my personal experience and what I've seen leads me to still believe we often call because it's free to ... which surely was the OP's point.

 

[Flying Penguin]

Interested to know why.

If the French Model is wrong why don't we see countless bodies being bought ashore as the casualties were too concerned at the towing cost to call for help.

As you know there is NO charge if the callout is deemed to be life saving.

Perhaps because when the schmidt really hits the fan, thoughts of money go out of the window?

A more suitable question might be, how many "serious" and high risk rescues involving life saving could have been a relatively simple tow had the intervention been sooner and before life was in imminent danger?

If the skipper faces the prospect of a potentially crippling bill, there is a clear incentive to push a bad situation until there is no choice but to get evacuated in situations which are more dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee. Personally I'd rather my RNLI donations went to towing a dozen numpties to safety (a fairly low risk activity for the rescuer) than encourage those same numpties to fend for themselves until one of them needs winching off the nearest rocks as their boat breaks up (a considerably more dangerous activity for all involved).

 

[Bav34]

If the skipper faces the prospect of a potentially crippling bill, there is a clear incentive to push a bad situation until there is no choice but to get evacuated in situations which are more dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee. Personally I'd rather my RNLI donations went to towing a dozen numpties to safety (a fairly low risk activity for the rescuer) than encourage those same numpties to fend for themselves until one of them needs winching off the nearest rocks as their boat breaks up (a considerably more dangerous activity for all involved).

So back to my point about the French Model. They face the potentially crippling bill but I have NEVER heard of that causing the problem you describe.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

One thing that we might consider is the role of the well known problem of people becoming goal oriented in an unusual situation. This can, quite easily, turn a non-threatening situation into one that is dangerous, or even fatal.

Because of my background, the best example I can give is a non-boaty one. No names or places, and no guarantee I have the details correct! However, many years ago, a group of people in Antarctica were on an island, at a well-supplied hut. They had food, shelter and fuel. The weather conditions changed for the worse, and the sea ice over which they had (perfectly safely) reached the hut began to deteriorate. They had dates by which they were supposed to be back at a main base, and of course, the main base offered creature comforts not available at the hut.

What happened was that they became fixed on the goal of reaching the main base, and took the unsafe decision to travel across the sea-ice. They were all lost.

The subsequent analysis was that they became so fixed on the goal of returning to the main station that they became inflexible in their thinking, and did not consider the perfectly safe course of staying where they were.

Now translated into boaty terms, might this not mean that someone planning on a passage from A to B can become fixated on the goal of getting to B, even though changed circumstances have made this an inappropriate or unsafe goal. Often in a difficult situation, the proper course of action is to re-evaluate your goals in the light of changed circumstances. But this kind of re-evaluation can be very hard, especially if people are tired, uncomfortable and at the edge of their skills.

I have an experience of this; suffering engine failure while attempting to head into wind and sea. It was INCREDIBLY difficult to force myself to reconsider our goals; to give up one goal in favour of another that was achievable with the resources now available. But we did it, and I am still here. At no time did I consider it right to call the Coastguard - in fact the reason I did not was because they might have tasked a lifeboat! But once we had made our decision to change our goal, we were not in any kind of danger, and I did not consider us in need of a lifeboat.

Excellent post and very relevant in todays busy world.

 

[Robin]

Interested to know why.

If the French Model is wrong why don't we see countless bodies being bought ashore as the casualties were too concerned at the towing cost to call for help.

As you know there is NO charge if the callout is deemed to be life saving.

The French Lifeboats are government funded and only partly financed by donations. Do you really really want a UK government run lifeboat service subjected to targets, cost cuts, HSE regulations? In our case I would dispute that our need was not life threatening or was about to become so out of our control. But WE did not call the lifeboat, we asked for a tow yes, we expected perhaps to pay for one if nobody nearby could help but the CG called the lifeboat. The Lifeboat charges a rate for the size of lifeboat sent multiplied by the time taken, the Audierne boat is a big one and came out 8mls to us, hence750 euros. We were not asked if we wanted a tow once the fishing boat had taken us out of danger, the lifeboat came up and passed the line over. I guess we could have refused, but how would that have been received?

If the public see that the RNLI is government funded then donations will drop dramatically IMO and the result would be fewer stations, poorer vessels upgraded less often.

 

[fireball]

And that I think is the point. There IS someone there if you're deeply in the ****.

However if you're not, both my personal experience and what I've seen leads me to still believe we often call because it's free to ... which surely was the OP's point.

Quite ... because some ppls deep **** seems to be if the ice cubes have melted ...

and that's the crux - anyone can buy a boat - no experience/qualifications/certification required. They can then go on to skipper that boat despite no experience. Their tolerance levels are very small - so any slight hiccup has them calling the CG for help.

One interesting distress call heard last year was a Mayday for engine failure in the Eastern Solent ... The CG established the basic facts and put them on hold ... then chastised them (over the VHF) for raising a Mayday when life wasn't in immediate danger ...

My concern is that if "we" leisure boaters cannot show a modicum of self sufficiency and start calling on more and more rescue services then questions will be asked and "we" will be forced into some sort of licensing in a bid to reduce the amount of problems.
We should start doing something about it NOW by raising awareness and encouraging more ppl to do appropriate RYA courses (or equiv) so that it doesn't escalate to the level where MPs become interested (or rather - the Civil Servants decide there's another revenue stream waiting to be tapped!)

 

[Flying Penguin]

So back to my point about the French Model. They face the potentially crippling bill but I have NEVER heard of that causing the problem you describe.

Sorry, but I can't see how the French system is any sort of evidence of the benefits of introducing perverse incentives into the mix. We have a well funded lifeboat service with more volunteers than they know what to do with and they aren't complaining, in fact every time I hear anything from them about it, it seems to be that they are quite happy with the "call us if you think you need to" state of affairs.

I genuinely don't see that there is a case for change.

 

[Bav34]

I understand your case well Robin. I read it the first time you posted it and found it very thought provoking.

However if the French can succesfully run their life saving service without resorting to out of date boats and insufficient stations (your scenario) I'm sure we can.

Just to put some flesh on the bones of my opinion, we were anchored off Brownsea Island one year and in one 24 hour period FIVE power/speed boats went past us being towed by an orange boat with a blue flashing light.

No charge.

Whilst in Granville a week later (and I guess you know what the rush is like when the cill drops ... 30? boats charge out) we saw a similar number of boats being towed back in over a 7 day period ... all by other pleasure boats.

Nobody died.

Anyway I knew that I was going to be polarised on this so enuf said

 

[Flying Penguin]

My concern is that if "we" leisure boaters cannot show a modicum of self sufficiency and start calling on more and more rescue services then questions will be asked and "we" will be forced into some sort of licensing in a bid to reduce the amount of problems.
We should start doing something about it NOW by raising awareness and encouraging more ppl to do appropriate RYA courses (or equiv) so that it doesn't escalate to the level where MPs become interested (or rather - the Civil Servants decide there's another revenue stream waiting to be tapped!)

So why would the government care? The RNLI are a public funded charity, the only time Government owned "expensive" resources, such as helicopters, get involved is if there is a life threatening situation.

Now there may be a case for certain minimum standards (preferably not enforced through bureaucratic licences) in order to stave off Government intervention, but that's not really related to an excess of over cautious "Solent Mayday" calls, but more the sort of pillock who gets himself winched to safety when his 30 year old bathtub breaks up on rocks having gone out pissed in an F11...

 

[fireball]

So why would the government care?

It appears they don't really at the moment ... but with the planned changes to the CG outfit then the use of their services by the leisure sector may be evaluated.

The RNLI are a public funded charity, the only time Government owned "expensive" resources, such as helicopters, get involved is if there is a life threatening situation.

Keeping CG on station 24/7 is expensive too ...

Now there may be a case for certain minimum standards (preferably not enforced through bureaucratic licences) in order to stave off Government intervention, but that's not really related to an excess of over cautious "Solent Mayday" calls, but more the sort of pillock who gets himself winched to safety when his 30 year old bathtub breaks up on rocks having gone out pissed in an F11...

For now, yes ... but how many ppl crying wolf do we need to change the governments mind?

Apart from anything else it's just good seamanship to be able to look after your own vessel!

I understand the suggestion of the French model ... but don't agree with it - however, I don't want the RNLI to become viewed primarily as a recovery service. I know their capable of recovering vessels and a lot of shouts can be used as active training. The UK has a long tradition of seafaring and I'd rather that didn't mutate into being viewed as a bunch of H&S pansies who wouldn't know one end of the boat from the other ...

 

[Fantasie 19]

....snippage.... I don't think there's a problem here that needs solving. Every lifeboat man I've ever come across seems to love getting to go roaring about in his big orange toy, stations seem to have so many volunteers turning up for each shout that they have to have systems to make sure everyone gets a fair go, and the organisation doesn't appear to be short of funds to pay for it all. Pete

Yup - why do we insist on getting our hair shirts out?? Are the RNLI complaining about being called out to numpty rescues?? Are they short of money?? Run out of petrol? Volunteers?

The answer is simple - if you don't want to be rescued, don't call them...

For me - I recognise my limitations... if I can't fix the cause of the problem then I won't have any hesitation in calling them....

 

[fireball]

For me - I recognise my limitations... if I can't fix the cause of the problem then I won't have any hesitation in calling them....

I recognise mine too ... it is unlikely that I could fix my engine whilst underway (engine failures seem to be the most prolific cause for call out) - but I have 2 working sails and know how to use them (given enough wind!) - granted it will probably take me longer to get to my destination, but I'd be prepared to divert to a more suitable port if required.
It isn't about being able to resolve the fault - but not have reliance on them. I suspect you're the same?

Robin sighted a case of being towed in by the lifeboat - I don't criticise him in the slightest - he had a look for the fault and couldn't see it - was obviously trying to sail but with too much tide and not enough wind was unable to do so - iirc he only called for assistance once the vessel was at risk of being driven on to rocks ...

In my own case I towed a boat in that could've sailed - albeit slowly - but he was at significant risk of being swept onto rocks. I've also lost propulsion when "at sea" due to the propshaft detaching from the gearbox - but there was enough wind to slowly sail back into harbour and onto the mooring - my only call was via mobile to the owner (F-i-Law) and my own father (who I wanted on call to launch a boat to tow us to the mooring should I miss it - thankfully I didn't!).

I know of a yacht that sailed the whole length of the Solent - setting out without engine - and then back again just to attend a rally. The offer of a tow was given but not taken up because they had enough wind to sail...

 

[Flying Penguin]

It appears they don't really at the moment ... but with the planned changes to the CG outfit then the use of their services by the leisure sector may be evaluated.

Keeping CG on station 24/7 is expensive too ...

But how much time does it really take to pass a location on to the RNLI/Seastart? It's a relatively fixed cost to pay for a CG station (broadly, building maintenance + shift wages) and if there are enough resources to keep CG stations operating 24/7 in some form, I can't see that it adds any additional cost to route these calls.

Trivial calls tend not to be in gale force winds and high seas (otherwise they wouldn't be trivial!), so would fall into times when the CG have more spare (fixed) capacity anyway.

For now, yes ... but how many ppl crying wolf do we need to change the governments mind?

It's always rational to assume irrational actions from the government (I sound like Tim!), but trivial calls which involve little CG effort and attract little to no media attention are very unlikely to attract the attention of any rational politicians. They have better things to do, like kissing babies and fiddling the books..

Apart from anything else it's just good seamanship to be able to look after your own vessel!

Agreed.