Why Are People So Down On Gel Batteries?

[GrahamM376]

There's a massive commercial battle on out there to improve battery technology. Energy is money. If you stand in the camp that flooded lead acid is better because it's familiar, I dare call you a luddite.

We all have differing points of view but, personally, I see no sense in spending vast amounts of money on high tech batteries which have restrictive charging regimes which may be fine for marina dwellers using 4 stage chargers but for liveaboard use aren't cost effective.

Ours are charged by a mixture of engine,solar,generator + chargers and Aerogen, all of which have differing charge characteristics. If I had the space, I would be using golf cart or fork lift batteries. I've tried Enersol AGMs at over 300 euro each and found they lasted no longer than standard leisure at 100 euro. No prizes for guessing what I've replaced the Enersols with.

Even more puzzling than the domestic bank argument is - why do people spend crazy money on engine start batteries? Our unbranded car battery (on the boat) has now lasted for 7 years at a fraction of the cost.

Seems to me some people have the attitude that if it doesn't cost a bundle, it can't be any good and spend even more money on high tech charging methods for their overpriced batteries then spend more time watching the battery monitors than sailing.

 

[Sandyman]

We all have differing points of view but, personally, I see no sense in spending vast amounts of money on high tech batteries which have restrictive charging regimes which may be fine for marina dwellers using 4 stage chargers but for liveaboard use aren't cost effective.

Ours are charged by a mixture of engine,solar,generator + chargers and Aerogen, all of which have differing charge characteristics. If I had the space, I would be using golf cart or fork lift batteries. I've tried Enersol AGMs at over 300 euro each and found they lasted no longer than standard leisure at 100 euro. No prizes for guessing what I've replaced the Enersols with.

Even more puzzling than the domestic bank argument is - why do people spend crazy money on engine start batteries? Our unbranded car battery (on the boat) has now lasted for 7 years at a fraction of the cost.

Seems to me some people have the attitude that if it doesn't cost a bundle, it can't be any good and spend even more money on high tech charging methods for their overpriced batteries then spend more time watching the battery monitors than sailing.

Couldn't agree more, old chap Have exact same set up.

Had to change my batt bank three years ago when the old ones had served their time.
(over ten years)
Got 2 times 110Ah batts from Cornwall Batteries of Truro, for 90 quid. No name. No brand.
Cheap as chips. They have been in constant use ever since & expect to get at least another 5 years out of them. How difficult can it be to once a month or so check the electrolyte levels & do a dip with a hydrometer ?

PS. Sincere thanks to the boatowner here in Gosport who replaces his batteries at the start of every season, whether they need replacing or not. You didn't even leave the pontoon last year so they must need replacing this years

PPS. Could you please just leave them outside the disposal bin this year with the red/blue plastic terminal covers on, as usual. No need to charge them up this year and BTW thanks for the gallon of distilled water. Glad you realise it goes off

 

[sailinglegend420]

......... I've tried Enersol AGMs at over 300 euro each and found they lasted no longer than standard leisure at 100 euro. No prizes for guessing what I've replaced the Enersols with.............

Enersol AGMs are designed for home Solar power systems - not deep cycle marine use!!!!!

Because all batteries are manufactured differently too many generalisations are often made. Check out exactly what your battery is designed to do and not just take the salesman's word that it is right for you. The problem is that this information is often not easy to find.

After 7 years as a permanent liveabord with the same Lifeline AGMs, and after meeting lots of owners all looking for the "best battery", I would offer the following conclusions.

Flooded deep cycle batteries need regular topping up and must be installed in ventilated area because they “gas”. Expensive ones will give a good service life.

AGMs on the other hand don’t gas and can be installed anywhere, because of their very low internal resistance, and they can be charged 15-30% faster than all other batteries, but you must follow a good charging regime according to the manufacturer’s specs, and monitor the voltage and capacity with a battery monitor. If you charge your batteries when the lights go dim, then don't waste your money on AGMs or even expensive flooded cells.

Gels are a totally different and older technology that don't "fast charge" are nowhere near as good as AGMs. Few are now sold for marine use, and they are much more expensive than AGMs.

Most cheap sealed “marine” or “leisure” batteries in hot climates don’t do well because of gassing, and because they can’t be topped up they don’t last very long. The hotter the climate the lower the gassing voltage and the shorter they will last. They are sensitive to overcharging - especially Sterling chargers.

So if you are a serious cruiser then maybe you have a simple choice between flooded cells that can be topped up or AGMs that will need a good charging regime to make the very best of their fast charge capability.

 

[demonboy]

Most cheap sealed “marine” or “leisure” batteries in hot climates don’t do well because of gassing, and because they can’t be topped up they don’t last very long. The hotter the climate the lower the gassing voltage and the shorter they will last. They are sensitive to overcharging - especially Sterling chargers.

So if you are a serious cruiser then maybe you have a simple choice between flooded cells that can be topped up or AGMs that will need a good charging regime to make the very best of their fast charge capability.

I'm in a hot, tropical climate and I am about to install a Sterling so you're saying SLAs would be a very bad idea. Fine, I've been looking at AGMs anyway, but what is the charging regime I need to follow? Any basic guidelines? FTR, the AGMs are the same price as SLAs here in India.

 

[sailinglegend420]

Mr Sterling recommends for general leisure to only use low-cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water. To claim "fast charging" his charge voltage goes up to 14.8v, which will cause batteries to gas. For sealed - including Gels and AGMs - there is a lower setting of 14.4v.

Batteries are affected by temperature, so in 25C they gas at 14.34v - at 40C they gas at 13.98v. If you are going for AGMs you need chargers - shorepower and alternator, that can adjust this voltage for the battery temperature, or have a lower starting voltage of 14.2v. For the best control get a charger or regulator with a temperature sensor for the battery.

Not all AGMs are the same, so you need to make sure they are designed for deep cycle marine use, not standby telecom use!! Get all the info you can from the manufacturer. The best AGMs are designed so that most of the hydrogen and oxygen gas will recombine to water and so not escape, but gassing can and will still effect their life.

One last thought. Because AGMs are not classed as "hazardous" you could get top quality batteries like Lifeline shipped from the UK for only about 20% extra over the basic price.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Mr Sterling recommends for general leisure to only use low-cost Lead Acid which can be topped up with water. To claim "fast charging" his charge voltage goes up to 14.8v, which will cause batteries to gas. For sealed - including Gels and AGMs - there is a lower setting of 14.4v..

Mr Sterling does not now recommend cheap Lead Acid, as he now realises his charger destroys cheap batteries for breakfast. I spoke to him this year after 4 Numax batteries were killed of in as many months. Good quality Rolls etc and charged at 14.8 are fine. Some now are sealed with re- combining of oxygenand hydrogen. Gasing is not a problem provided you top up.

Not all AGMs are the same, so you need to make sure they are designed for deep cycle marine use, not standby telecom use!! Get all the info you can from the manufacturer. The best AGMs are designed so that most of the hydrogen and oxygen gas will recombine to water and so not escape, but gassing can and will still effect their life.

One last thought. Because AGMs are not classed as "hazardous" you could get top quality batteries like Lifeline shipped from the UK for only about 20% extra over the basic price.

Sealed Lead Acid also come with recombining systems. Do not buy the ones that are not recombining. The ones I bought last year, Korean E-NEX, recommend charging to 14.8V. I have however chickened out and reduced charging to 14.4V. Note that there is a significant difference in the charge rate between 14.4V (55amps) and 14.8V (85 amps). These figure are on start up say 30% discharged with 100AH alternator.

A word of warning on installing Sterling Alternator controller.
1. The controller is very sensitive to voltage drops along the main charging cables. This must be adequate in size and good contacts. If not the bloody thing will keep tripping.
2. The alternator will get very hot, so I would install a switch in the white cable so that you can switch it off.
3. Carry a spare fan belt.

 

[Boo2]

parallel with positive and negative from opposite ends of the parallel lines is essential.

Eh ? Do what ?

Boo2

 

[Cardo]

Eh ? Do what ?

Boo2

Think he means Method 2 on this page...
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

 

[demonboy]

A word of warning on installing Sterling Alternator controller.
1. The controller is very sensitive to voltage drops along the main charging cables. This must be adequate in size and good contacts. If not the bloody thing will keep tripping.
2. The alternator will get very hot, so I would install a switch in the white cable so that you can switch it off.
3. Carry a spare fan belt.

Are we talking about the same unit? I'm installing a Pro Alt C Alternator to Battery Charger. What white cable are you talking about?

 

[Chris_Robb]

Are we talking about the same unit? I'm installing a Pro Alt C Alternator to Battery Charger. What white cable are you talking about?

I thought you were referring to the Alternator controller - don't recognise your details so presume it is his later unit. Still worth checking you get no voltage loss across the wires.

 

[demonboy]

I've rewired a number of items and have ensured that cables from alternators to chargers etc are big enough for the job. BTW - I don't carry a single spare fan belt, I carry at least five!

 

[Boo2]

Think he means Method 2 on this page...
http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html

Interesting, thanks.

Boo2

 

[gavin_lacey]

Yes I do mean method two in the diagram provided. I do not agree with the supposed improvement in some of the other diagrams. They rely on exactly the same length wires and perfect joins in the system, - just dosnt happen on a boat. Method 2 works and is recommended by battery manufacturers and, I believe, the boat owners electrical bible.

 

[MBullock]

I strongly believe the best way of making sure your batteries last is to have your bank well oversized so that you never discharge below around 50% and most of the time stay around 80% or above.

When we got the current boat I changed the settings on the Battery Monitor to tell it that our bank was 50% of it's true capacity. That way when we (especially SHMBO) sees something like 30% 'remaining' we know we should charge somehow sometime soon. It's totally psychological as I know it's an incorrect number. However, with good quality leads (they are fe**ing heavy!) and watering them regularly plus not over discharging them they do seem to be lasting well - 6yrs thus far inc. an Atlantic Circuit and West Coast Scotland.

 

[temptress]

I'll warn you now, I am going near-mad trying to decide on what maintenance-free batteries to go for to replace our SLAs. ......
Someone on PBO has just told me he's done 12-15 years on his gels. Doesn't that say it all?

On Temptress we use Lead Acid batteries. We have tired Gel and AGM batteries over the years and found them to be not much better than lead acid batteries. So when we replaced our batteries last year we went for Lead Acid batteries. We came to the conclusion that they gave as good service as any of the orhers but were more affordable.

We keep an eye on the charge level, never letting them discharge below 55% and as a rule keep then between 90% and 60%. Topping the water up in them is not a big deal.

As we regularly leave the boat for long periods I spent some time putting in a charging system and have not had any major battery problems over the last couple of years.

My last 2 sets of batteries lasted me 3 and 4 years respectively. Some years ago I got 7 years from a set of lead acid batteries but that was on a much smaller boat and I only used power for lighting. No fridge and manual anchor winch, minimum instruments etc..

 

[Pinetops]

Our Baren Batterie (Italian Fiamm Group) maintenance free flooded lead acid domestics have removeable caps. So the electrolyte could be topped up which presumably would compensate for gassing. This has been unecessary in 2 seasons in the Med. We treat them in the same way as the original unsealed bank (which lasted 6 seasons) and so far no problems. So do we have the best of both worlds?

Pinetops

 

[bjvarley]

On Temptress we use Lead Acid batteries. We have tried Gel and AGM batteries over the years and found them to be not much better than lead acid batteries. So when we replaced our batteries last year we went for Lead Acid batteries. We came to the conclusion that they gave as good service as any of the orhers but were more affordable.

I think pretty much the same..and we dont always have any choice.. try buying anything but a tractor battery in Tunisia or Turkey!
Brian

 

[demonboy]

try buying anything but a tractor battery in Tunisia or Turkey!

Our last set of batteries were from Turkey and they were Delphi 'Freedom Marine' Calcium, so you can get other types. You could probably find golf cart 6v if you wandered up to the golf course near Bodrum airport too!

Since I started the thread I thought I'd give you an update:

- I decided I couldn't trust me or my charging system to run gels
- AGMs are made in India but they are of a substandard quality, and that was from the CEO of one of the largest battery manufacturers
- For AGMs to be effective they need to be charged hard. Most liveaboard boats do not produce the optimum 300 or so amps required to charge them correctly.
- There's a trade-off between performance and price regarding AGMs and I had neither the budget nor the source to give this option a punt
- I figured if lead acid last longer and perform better than sealed, especially in this tropical heat, why write them off?
- I decided topping up is a small price to pay for performance and longevity. I bought my SLAs for convenience but they were still 100 euros each and have lasted four years tops (I suspect they started losing their charge less than 3 years after purchase)
- I decided to go for 6v for their deep-cycling properties and all the talk of golf-cart type battery robustness
- I almost bought some Trojan 125s which were being imported here but due to the exchange rate between the dollar and the rupee, they were very expensive
- Exide produce similar 6v batteries to the Trojan 125s (at least in terms of dimensions) and are cheaper (but not cheap) so I'm going to give them a go

So there we have it. That's the decision-making process I went through, though results of the 6v are yet to be tested as the batteries are currently on order.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

 

[ccscott49]

Our last set of batteries were from Turkey and they were Delphi 'Freedom Marine' Calcium, so you can get other types. You could probably find golf cart 6v if you wandered up to the golf course near Bodrum airport too!

Since I started the thread I thought I'd give you an update:

- I decided I couldn't trust me or my charging system to run gels
- AGMs are made in India but they are of a substandard quality, and that was from the CEO of one of the largest battery manufacturers
- For AGMs to be effective they need to be charged hard. Most liveaboard boats do not produce the optimum 300 or so amps required to charge them correctly.
- There's a trade-off between performance and price regarding AGMs and I had neither the budget nor the source to give this option a punt
- I figured if lead acid last longer and perform better than sealed, especially in this tropical heat, why write them off?
- I decided topping up is a small price to pay for performance and longevity. I bought my SLAs for convenience but they were still 100 euros each and have lasted four years tops (I suspect they started losing their charge less than 3 years after purchase)
- I decided to go for 6v for their deep-cycling properties and all the talk of golf-cart type battery robustness
- I almost bought some Trojan 125s which were being imported here but due to the exchange rate between the dollar and the rupee, they were very expensive
- Exide produce similar 6v batteries to the Trojan 125s (at least in terms of dimensions) and are cheaper (but not cheap) so I'm going to give them a go

So there we have it. That's the decision-making process I went through, though results of the 6v are yet to be tested as the batteries are currently on order.

Thanks to everyone who commented.

300 amps to charge batteries?? I think not my little demon friend!! Not unless you are towing a barge with your 3000 AH battery bank in it!

 

[demonboy]

The key word is 'optimum', Colin. Anyone can charge a battery with anything, but there is an argument that to get the best performance from an AGM you need to be putting in a high current.

This item explains it far better than I do.