Why are Bavarias so unloved??

Chris_Robb said:
I have only sailed 2 Bavs:

1. Bav 42 from 1990
Sailed Nicely, Creaked and groaned with every wave, and bulheads mowved to such an extent that they would have chopped a finger off! All hatches leaked like a sieve. A well used example, ex charter and run by a syndicate for last 8 years.

2. Bav 38 Holiday 1997.
Sailed broad reach from Salcombe in lumpy sea - F4. Broached so readily that I would never ever want to be near it in a rough sea...... I am not a rubbish helm either.....
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Strange - cos the older boats were considered to be built more solidly than the newer ones ... are you sure the Bav42 was a 1990 build?

As for broaching - what sail did you have up? We had to put 2 reefs in the main on the Cherbourg run this year as she would round up (slowly) - left full Genoa though ..
I found the boat has to be sailed more pro-actively rather than passively, ie bear away as the next wave lifts the stern and not wait for the start of the round up before correcting - this is why the AP is a bit cak in a sea - it'll get you there, but helm by hand is far quicker.
 
fireball said:
Strange - cos the older boats were considered to be built more solidly than the newer ones ... are you sure the Bav42 was a 1990 build?

As for broaching - what sail did you have up? We had to put 2 reefs in the main on the Cherbourg run this year as she would round up (slowly) - left full Genoa though ..
I found the boat has to be sailed more pro-actively rather than passively, ie bear away as the next wave lifts the stern and not wait for the start of the round up before correcting - this is why the AP is a bit cak in a sea - it'll get you there, but helm by hand is far quicker.
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I could add something to this.
Construction issues:
I had to help a friend fix his 1992 Bavaria 30 plus when the keel floors started to detach from the hull.The reason for that was not flimsy laminating .The keelbolt washers (no plates!!) rested directly on the hull laminate as the tabbing had been cut away around the area of the bolts,presumably to create a flat surface for them.This made it very easy for the keel loads to pull everything apart.So we have to major building mistakes:no washers and no connection between keel bolts and floors.
Handling:
Despite not being extreme in shape this boat would round up and tack at the slightest provocation.
I once sailed a Oceanis 35 that just wouldn't respond to the helm in anything above 20kns of wind.Reefing early and all.So not just a Bavaria problem more like a Bloated Boat Syndrome.

I must say that I've sailed my Fulmar in pretty tough conditions and she just doesn't broach even when overcanvassed.
 
fireball said:
Strange - cos the older boats were considered to be built more solidly than the newer ones ... are you sure the Bav42 was a 1990 build?

As for broaching - what sail did you have up? We had to put 2 reefs in the main on the Cherbourg run this year as she would round up (slowly) - left full Genoa though ..
I found the boat has to be sailed more pro-actively rather than passively, ie bear away as the next wave lifts the stern and not wait for the start of the round up before correcting - this is why the AP is a bit cak in a sea - it'll get you there, but helm by hand is far quicker.
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The 42 had really seen life - been grounded several times - bottom rebuild etc so not a fair example. Freind did the Azores race in her, and was soaked from start to finish (also had Goretex sailing gear, which was worse than a teashirt!) He was bunked mear the mast, which is deck stepped, and supported on a beam or lintel across the bullheads. Every sea caused this to creak so ominously that we was worried that the mast would come through the deck!

As for the Bav Holiday - it would seem that the rudder just lost grip in the water - I presume that the holiday is a rather beamier representation of the Bav race, so could be excused given compromise on accomodation.
 
30boat said:
I could add something to this.
Construction issues:
I had to help a friend fix his 1992 Bavaria 30 plus when the keel floors started to detach from the hull.The reason for that was not flimsy laminating .The keelbolt washers (no plates!!) rested directly on the hull laminate as the tabbing had been cut away around the area of the bolts,presumably to create a flat surface for them.This made it very easy for the keel loads to pull everything apart.So we have to major building mistakes:no washers and no connection between keel bolts and floors.
Handling:
Despite not being extreme in shape this boat would round up and tack at the slightest provocation.
I once sailed a Oceanis 35 that just wouldn't respond to the helm in anything above 20kns of wind.Reefing early and all.So not just a Bavaria problem more like a Bloated Boat Syndrome.

I must say that I've sailed my Fulmar in pretty tough conditions and she just doesn't broach even when overcanvassed.
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Hmm - sounds like a design issue - no such problems at all (that I know of) on our 2000 Bav 37 .. The bulkheads are recessed into glass channels then mastic used to keep in place - a little creaking as she goes downwind, but I'm pretty sure that it is in the cockpit mouldings.

A lot of rounding issues can be attributed to sail shape - if the sail was blown or not flat enough then you're going to move CofEffort too far aft - which will cause major issues in rounding up - could be you just needed a bit more genoa? - simple physics!!

I've not sailed a fulmar - even if pretty touch conditions - but if she just doesn't broach then it sounds like the sail/boat balance right for those conditions - although I'd bet she sails faster with less sail and a bit more upright!
 
As for the Bav Holiday - it would seem that the rudder just lost grip in the water - I presume that the holiday is a rather beamier representation of the Bav race, so could be excused given compromise on accomodation.
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I believe the holiday's are just different interior layouts - same hullshape ...
Our rounding up was just the rudder loosing grip because the turning force from the main was too great.
IMHO AWB's are more sensitive to sailplan/shape and need to be more actively sailed - I believe this to be a tradeoff against cramper living space/less manouverability generally found in older boats.
 
fireball said:
I believe the holiday's are just different interior layouts - same hullshape ...
Our rounding up was just the rudder loosing grip because the turning force from the main was too great.
IMHO AWB's are more sensitive to sailplan/shape and need to be more actively sailed - I believe this to be a tradeoff against cramper living space/less manouverability generally found in older boats.
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Life is generally a compromise!
 
fireball said:
Hmm - sounds like a design issue - no such problems at all (that I know of) on our 2000 Bav 37 .. The bulkheads are recessed into glass channels then mastic used to keep in place - a little creaking as she goes downwind, but I'm pretty sure that it is in the cockpit mouldings.

A lot of rounding issues can be attributed to sail shape - if the sail was blown or not flat enough then you're going to move CofEffort too far aft - which will cause major issues in rounding up - could be you just needed a bit more genoa? - simple physics!!

I've not sailed a fulmar - even if pretty touch conditions - but if she just doesn't broach then it sounds like the sail/boat balance right for those conditions - although I'd bet she sails faster with less sail and a bit more upright!
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I didn't mention that that 92 Bavaria was otherwise very well built,so you're right it was a design issue most likely corrected in later boats.
The genoa was indeed small but the hull design wasn't very good.My Peterson 30 outperformed it every time in any conditions.
The Fulmar may not be a fair example because it may be one of the better balanced boats ever made.The reason for sailing her overcanvassed was that I'm lazy and the boat doesn't complain.
 
Quandary said:
OH dear me, and I thought I was articulate?
Try reading ALL of what you quoted from my post.
My list refers to my boat which is not a Hanse and has a stainless steel stock. Where did I say the Hanse rudder did not float, it must have floated to get all the way to Kintyre,
Are you Irish?
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Yes your right I read it wrong and apologise, yes I am Irish is there a point to that particular question ?:0 :)


Rab
 
Quandary said:
Thanks, I have taken the time to read the report again and apologize for the inaccuracies in my first account, at first I was too lazy to read it again.
However, it does not allay all my concerns. As I have read it; the autopilot arm was fitted without modifying the existing keyway and the report indicates that the machining of the stock taper was 'rough' with a possibility of fissures. The boat was being steered manually at the time and the stock sheared above the taper allowing the rudder to drop right out and float away.
I would hate to think that my autopilot would be capable of shearing the rudder stock, but the following differences to the Hanse give me comfort.
1. the rudder shaft is stainless steel bar, (the rudder certainly would not float)
2. The only machining of the stock is above the top bearing to allow the emegency tiller to be fitted, the steering arms are clamped around the stock.
3. The top bearing is much higher which while needing a longer heavier stock gives much greater strength by reducing the moment of stress on each bearing.
4 If the rudder was to drop it would be most unlikely to be able to pass out through the hull. (Jefa do make rudders with steel or aluminium stocks and frames but the alloy versions are not used by the majority of their customers)
5 the aft lockers were separated by a full height bulkhead from the rest of the boat though this is penetrated near the top by the steering link arm and the autopilot. ( after this I must check if I have drilled a hole for two electrical cables lower down)
I would also contest the information that there are 'hundreds of thousands' of boats with the Hanse arrangement worldwide.
I always try to keep weight out of the ends of my boat and accept the benefits of reducing the weight of rudders to a position where they actually are buoyant, I just am not yet prepared to accept that this technology is quite ready for the Awb market yet.
I am not a total Luddite but going mainly cruising these days safety and reliabilty are higher in my priorities, even when I was in the design business we used to let product innovations settle down for a few years, much less risk of failure and litigation.
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Perhaps we both need to be a little more careful:)




regards

Rab
 
As for the original question "Why are Bavaria's so unloved ?"

I would think that 99% of boats ARE loved.... by their owners otherwise, why own it??

If you meant "Why are Bavaria's so unloved by other people ?", please explain why Bavaria owners should give a flying f*** what anybody else thinks?

Just my opinion and therefore not worth a damn.

Ollie
 
galadriel said:
"Bavarias had a problem with their keels a few years ago ...... "

One fell off, on a particular type of Bav after hitting a rock. Have no other boats had keel problems?
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What about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmRIrh2hK5U

Same problem or a different one? I'm not trying to stir up WW3 - it's a genuine question to help cure my ignorance.

The post by ubergeekian just about sums the situation up perfectly. The hierarchy and snobbery that surrounds some areas of boat ownership is unbelievable.
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Thanks! My own solution is to let the snobs have their fun and go sailing. There's a lot of sea out there.
 
Ubergeekian said:
What about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmRIrh2hK5U

Same problem or a different one? I'm not trying to stir up WW3 - it's a genuine question to help cure my ignorance.
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Same model. Problem was related to the Match range. Boat that "lost" its keel was a 42, but the 38 had similar issues. Somewhere above you will find a string of links to various contemporary reports.

Undoubtedly a problem, mixture of design, Quality control and operator errors. Resolved by redesigning the keel attachments, upgrading all boats built and stopping production. Expensive mistake for Bavaria and not very well handled. However, not the only builder to have problems with keels on sporty production boats. Just that when you are big and visible the impact is more noticeable!

Little connection between this range and the ones you charter for your holiday - different concept, different designer, but same colour blue stripes!
 
I've only had first hand experience with one Bav, a 36 when me and 4 Firemen associates did a sailing course a couple or so years ago.

Was comfortable and all rather nice.

Ultimately I prefer my yachts with more old-school unique charm but to criticise Bavaria's for that would mean criticising a good proportion of all other manufacturers.

It's a modern, open plan, easy to sail boat which is (relatively) easy on the pocket and means more people are able to take their families Sailing in comfort.

I can think of far worse things to moan about. Thumbs up from me.
 
Tranona said:
Same model. Problem was related to the Match range. Boat that "lost" its keel was a 42, but the 38 had similar issues. Somewhere above you will find a string of links to various contemporary reports.

Undoubtedly a problem, mixture of design, Quality control and operator errors. Resolved by redesigning the keel attachments, upgrading all boats built and stopping production. Expensive mistake for Bavaria and not very well handled. However, not the only builder to have problems with keels on sporty production boats. Just that when you are big and visible the impact is more noticeable!
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Thank you. I am enlightened.
 
The Bavaria 38 Match I sailed quite a bit last summer was a nice boat. Quick and easy to sail even shorthanded, and way above for my standards built-wise. But then again, I can never afford any boat of that calibre.

P.S. The keel didn't fall off but have to admit that it was reinforced...
 
Bitter, Moi?

OLLIE45 said:
As for the original question "Why are Bavaria's so unloved ?"

I would think that 99% of boats ARE loved.... by their owners otherwise, why own it??

If you meant "Why are Bavaria's so unloved by other people ?", please explain why Bavaria owners should give a flying f*** what anybody else thinks?



Ollie
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It's a bit like a bloke coming up to you in a pub and telling you your beloved wife is an ugly bitch!!

It's interesting to see things have not changed since we sold our Bav 36 some four years ago and went back to the dark side - still the same old prejudice - it used to really upset me!! Ours was sailed by the new owner to Greece, where he cruises throughout the Islands, and send us a video of his trips every year. The boat, now 8 years old is evidently still like new inside and out - he is a vastly experienced sailor, and adores the boat.

I now have a 20 ton, 30 knot mobo and happily create as much wash as possible for these old, slow boat type owners who used to criticise our beloved Bav (sadly my twisted mind lumps you all together, guilty or not!), whilst giving modern yachts a kindly wide berth. Bitter? Moi? Mais oui!!
 
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