Why are Bavarias so unloved??

john_morris_uk said:
You might have a point as my experience of sailing Bavarias has nearly always been on Sea-School boats where the sails were not in the prime of their life. If the new sails are cut a little full, then its no wonder that my experience is what it is.

I would be very interested to sail a Bav 34 with new sails and am quite prepared to take back all I have said. (I also emphasise that my comments probably apply equally to several other modern fat bottomed boats.)

I still go sailing on Bavarias, but I know that the way that they (and other modern boats) sometimes behave isn't the way it has to be.
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John I am always willing to learn and would welcome the experience of spending some time sailing time with you. If you are serious please pm me and we can go from there. I would enjoy the oportunity to enhance bavarias reputation on this forum and to also gain from each others experience.

I

Regards Graham
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Hanse have had rudder problems,
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Yet another example of how urban myths come about.

Hanse have not had rudder problems.

There was indeed a failure of a rudder stock on a Hanse. However the extensive enquiry was unable to identify the cause, although modifications to fit the autopilot may have been involved. Unlike the Bavaria keel incident the Hanse case was fully investigated by the Irish MCIB and the report is on their site.

As far as I know, there have not been any other failures of this design of rudder, which is fitted to many other boats in addition to Hanse.
 
Tranona said:
Yet another example of how urban myths come about.

There was indeed a failure of a rudder stock on a Hanse. However the extensive enquiry was unable to identify the cause, although modifications to fit the autopilot may have been involved. Unlike the Bavaria keel incident the Hanse case was fully investigated by the Irish MCIB and the report is on their site.

As far as I know, there have not been any other failures of this design of rudder, which is fitted to many other boats in addition to Hanse.
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You may be right but there was a lot of suspicion about this failure in Irish yachting circles, the boat was new and owned by the Irish Hanse importer and sank on its way to the Scottish series. He would surely have been determined to ensure the marque was not blamed. It was one of those cases where the decision to abandon to the yacht standing by was regarded by some as premature. I never could fathom the autopilot explanation but it is a while ago now. Was the boat raised? However I would imagine that a lot fewer boatbuilders would be using heavy and expensive solid stainless steel rudder shafts if alloy tube was not regarded as a risk. Interestingly Jefa who make the steering on my boat caution strongly regarding the risk of electrolitic corrosion of rudder shafts at the blade hull joint, even their solid steel ones; and warn that any autopilot must be electrically isolated from the rudder, not easy to do. Their own new autopilot is claimed to be isolated, so they have an axe to grind. Info on www.jefa.com.
 
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And whilst on the subject of keel problems, although I have been unable to find any details (didnt bother looking to hard), I do believe Sweden Yachts have had series of problems, wasnt it a SY that was abandoned in the Atlantic doing an ARC a couple of years ago.
 
We bought a new Bavaria 37 in 2001 and have had a great time with it - have sailed from Largs ( myself, wife, dog ) over 10,000 mile to England, Wales, IOM , Ireland, N Ireland, and all of the West Coast of Scotland. Was a super boat and we enjoyed it very much - no complaints at all in seven years. We got every penny from it, felt very safe, and sold it on in 2008 to a Polish person who is enjoying it a lot in Greece. We now have had a new Malo 40 for 2 years and think its superb, but in no way would I criticise the Bavaria - people who do are just snobs or ill informed.
 
Quandary said:
You may be right but there was a lot of suspicion about this failure in Irish yachting circles, the boat was new and owned by the Irish Hanse importer and sank on its way to the Scottish series. He would surely have been determined to ensure the marque was not blamed. It was one of those cases where the decision to abandon to the yacht standing by was regarded by some as premature. I never could fathom the autopilot explanation but it is a while ago now. Was the boat raised? However I would imagine that a lot fewer boatbuilders would be using heavy and expensive solid stainless steel rudder shafts if alloy tube was not regarded as a risk. Interestingly Jefa who make the steering on my boat caution strongly regarding the risk of electrolitic corrosion of rudder shafts at the blade hull joint, even their solid steel ones; and warn that any autopilot must be electrically isolated from the rudder, not easy to do. Their own new autopilot is claimed to be isolated, so they have an axe to grind. Info on www.jefa.com.
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I read the report and I dont think it was premature to abandon ship it was sinking and indeed did sink quite quick. In fact the liferaft which was hired would not inflate. The boat was not raised it sank in deep water.

The rudder was found washed up on a beach and it was investigated.

Regards


Rab
 
Quandary said:
You may be right but there was a lot of suspicion about this failure in Irish yachting circles, the boat was new and owned by the Irish Hanse importer and sank on its way to the Scottish series. He would surely have been determined to ensure the marque was not blamed. It was one of those cases where the decision to abandon to the yacht standing by was regarded by some as premature. I never could fathom the autopilot explanation but it is a while ago now. Was the boat raised? However I would imagine that a lot fewer boatbuilders would be using heavy and expensive solid stainless steel rudder shafts if alloy tube was not regarded as a risk. Interestingly Jefa who make the steering on my boat caution strongly regarding the risk of electrolitic corrosion of rudder shafts at the blade hull joint, even their solid steel ones; and warn that any autopilot must be electrically isolated from the rudder, not easy to do. Their own new autopilot is claimed to be isolated, so they have an axe to grind. Info on www.jefa.com.
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Suggest you actually read the report. It was not a new boat, but a very well travelled commercially operated boat that had crosesed the Atlantic more than once - with the autopilot fitted.

Abandoning ship was the only course of action as the yacht was sinking. This was because the break in the stock was above the top bearing and seal so the whole rudder assembly fell out of the bottom. If there was a design fault it was because there was not a water tight bulkhead in front of the steering gear.

There was no suggestion that anybody was trying to hide anything - the investigation was independent and involved a German consulting firm.

Why am I saying all this - just read the report - it is all there!
 
sailorman said:
i thought it a Legend with a carbon rudder stock :confused:
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Yes there was an SY abandondoned - keel problems IIRC.

A number of Hunter/Legend yachts have got into trouble through their composite GRP stocks failing - well over 20 according to the builder. They now use stainless stocks. The issue has been reported here a number of times, most recently on the Liveaboard forum with a Legend in the Pacific.

You can go on forever finding faults and failures with just about any make of boat - delaminating HRs and Malos, disintegrating keel floors on Bowmans, skegs breaking off Moodys, osmosis on nearly new X Boats, keel castings breaking on Sigmas - all on these fora in the last year. Even in my case leaking Rutgerson hatches on my Bavaria. But in a sense it is rather pointless. Most of the failings are not well documented so it is often difficult to establish facts. There are the rare ones like the Hanse failure which was independently investigated - but as can be seen, even when the report is in the public domain people still get it wrong!
 
galadriel said:
And whilst on the subject of keel problems, although I have been unable to find any details (didnt bother looking to hard), I do believe Sweden Yachts have had series of problems, wasnt it a SY that was abandoned in the Atlantic doing an ARC a couple of years ago.
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A British flagged Sweden Yacht about 40ft was towed into Cherbourg by the lifeboat last year or year before when we were there and lifted out immediately with a rudder dropped and hanging loose, and I think taking in water.
 
I hope that with the extent of positive support given by Bavaria owners on recent threads backed up with their experiences and now with various problems on other make of boats which have been highlighted in the last 20 or so posts here, I hope it is now clear that Bavaria yachts are no more or less reliable and seaworthy than any other boat.

The STIX measurement of a boats seaworthiness is applied to all boats in equal measure, the fact that the STIX rating of a Bav 32 is very similar to a CO32 may well be very inconvenient to the traditionalists. In 1979 the CO32 was without doubt the most seaworthy boat of her size able to survive the tragic Fastnet race. But who is to say that today there may well be a whole host of AWB's, boats which are smirked at by the traditionalist, that too could have survived. Since the Fastnet tragedy, liferaft design and build has changed dramatically, so has boat design.

The CO32 and many other plastic classics are fine boats, the CO32 especially has a 'row away' factor which is unmatched. This will not be the last Bav bashing thread, usually started by a troll, lets not forget if everyone liked the same boats the water would be a pretty boring place.
 
Tranona said:
Suggest you actually read the report. It was not a new boat, but a very well travelled commercially operated boat that had crosesed the Atlantic more than once - with the autopilot fitted.

Abandoning ship was the only course of action as the yacht was sinking. This was because the break in the stock was above the top bearing and seal so the whole rudder assembly fell out of the bottom. If there was a design fault it was because there was not a water tight bulkhead in front of the steering gear.

There was no suggestion that anybody was trying to hide anything - the investigation was independent and involved a German consulting firm.

Why am I saying all this - just read the report - it is all there!
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Thanks, I have taken the time to read the report again and apologize for the inaccuracies in my first account, at first I was too lazy to read it again.
However, it does not allay all my concerns. As I have read it; the autopilot arm was fitted without modifying the existing keyway and the report indicates that the machining of the stock taper was 'rough' with a possibility of fissures. The boat was being steered manually at the time and the stock sheared above the taper allowing the rudder to drop right out and float away.
I would hate to think that my autopilot would be capable of shearing the rudder stock, but the following differences to the Hanse give me comfort.
1. the rudder shaft is stainless steel bar, (the rudder certainly would not float)
2. The only machining of the stock is above the top bearing to allow the emegency tiller to be fitted, the steering arms are clamped around the stock.
3. The top bearing is much higher which while needing a longer heavier stock gives much greater strength by reducing the moment of stress on each bearing.
4 If the rudder was to drop it would be most unlikely to be able to pass out through the hull. (Jefa do make rudders with steel or aluminium stocks and frames but the alloy versions are not used by the majority of their customers)
5 the aft lockers were separated by a full height bulkhead from the rest of the boat though this is penetrated near the top by the steering link arm and the autopilot. ( after this I must check if I have drilled a hole for two electrical cables lower down)
I would also contest the information that there are 'hundreds of thousands' of boats with the Hanse arrangement worldwide.
I always try to keep weight out of the ends of my boat and accept the benefits of reducing the weight of rudders to a position where they actually are buoyant, I just am not yet prepared to accept that this technology is quite ready for the Awb market yet.
I am not a total Luddite but going mainly cruising these days safety and reliabilty are higher in my priorities, even when I was in the design business we used to let product innovations settle down for a few years, much less risk of failure and litigation.
 
Quandary said:
Thanks, I have taken the time to read the report again and apologize for the inaccuracies in my first account, at first I was too lazy to read it again.
However, it does not allay all my concerns. As I have read it; the autopilot arm was fitted without modifying the existing keyway and the report indicates that the machining of the stock taper was 'rough' with a possibility of fissures. The boat was being steered manually at the time and the stock sheared above the taper allowing the rudder to drop right out and float away.
I would hate to think that my autopilot would be capable of shearing the rudder stock, but the following differences to the Hanse give me comfort.
1. the rudder shaft is stainless steel bar, (the rudder certainly would not float)
2. The only machining of the stock is above the top bearing to allow the emegency tiller to be fitted, the steering arms are clamped around the stock.
3. The top bearing is much higher which while needing a longer heavier stock gives much greater strength by reducing the moment of stress on each bearing.
4 If the rudder was to drop it would be most unlikely to be able to pass out through the hull. (Jefa do make rudders with steel or aluminium stocks and frames but the alloy versions are not used by the majority of their customers)
5 the aft lockers were separated by a full height bulkhead from the rest of the boat though this is penetrated near the top by the steering link arm and the autopilot. ( after this I must check if I have drilled a hole for two electrical cables lower down)
I would also contest the information that there are 'hundreds of thousands' of boats with the Hanse arrangement worldwide.
I always try to keep weight out of the ends of my boat and accept the benefits of reducing the weight of rudders to a position where they actually are buoyant, I just am not yet prepared to accept that this technology is quite ready for the Awb market yet.
I am not a total Luddite but going mainly cruising these days safety and reliabilty are higher in my priorities, even when I was in the design business we used to let product innovations settle down for a few years, much less risk of failure and litigation.
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If it didnt float how did they recover it ?

The report states 'The recovery of the rudder and liferaft were key to the investigation. You did read that bit ?

Rab
 
padipaddy said:
If it didnt float how did they recover it ?

The report states 'The recovery of the rudder and liferaft were key to the investigation. You did read that bit ?

Rab
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OH dear me, and I thought I was articulate?
Try reading ALL of what you quoted from my post.
My list refers to my boat which is not a Hanse and has a stainless steel stock. Where did I say the Hanse rudder did not float, it must have floated to get all the way to Kintyre,
Are you Irish?
 
Quandary said:
I would also contest the information that there are 'hundreds of thousands' of boats with the Hanse arrangement worldwide.
I always try to keep weight out of the ends of my boat and accept the benefits of reducing the weight of rudders to a position where they actually are buoyant, I just am not yet prepared to accept that this technology is quite ready for the Awb market yet.
I am not a total Luddite but going mainly cruising these days safety and reliabilty are higher in my priorities, even when I was in the design business we used to let product innovations settle down for a few years, much less risk of failure and litigation.
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Glad you have read it again. You are, however, still being selective about the bits you comment on. This does appear to be a one-off failure, and there were doubts about the way the autopilot was fitted, and about the quality of machining. However, none of the "experts" was prepared to state a definitve cause of failure. On the other hand the rudder was designed and built to the ABS standard - and there is no suggestion the standard was inadequate (my maths is not quite up to checking the calculations).

As to the number of boats using this design - as far as I know Bavaria use aluminium stocks as well as Hanse. It would be surprising if other builders do not also use it, after all Jefa are the major supplier. As to the state of development, this type of rudder has been used for many years and would not be considered advanced or innovative. Composite and carbon fibre stocks, however might be in that category.

What I find interesting is that this failure was not where you would expect. Logically the forces on the stock come from the blade and photos of failures that I have seen of non metallic stocks have been around the lower bearing or in between the bearings. In this case the seal is likely to remain intact.

I agree about watertight integrity. my boat has a fairly watertight bulkhead and even if the rudder did drop out I doubt water would enter the rest of the boat in volumes that the pump could not cope with.
 
Tranona
You know a good deal more about metals than I do. The report seemed to imply that fissures could be present in aluminium stocks, is that less likely in stainless steel? I appreciate the failure was a one off but why could it not happen again, is there some way that in a case like this where the stock is essential to hull integrity that it could be examined or X rayed or something. I am not trying to be deliberately argumentative but trying to understand why the boat was lost. I just would not like it to happen to me. I am surprised that alloy stocks are as widespread as you say, until now I thought they were mainly only on Hanses and some performance boats.
 
capnsensible said:
I get to spend quite a bit of time on various Bavarias and really don't have a problem with them.

Some of the stuff fitted to them are a bit naff, like Lewmar bits, but thats British so its expected to be a tad shoddy.

Otherwise, I reckon you get good value. Was on a 42 all last week, handled nicely in harbour, sailed in winds of up to 30 odd knots, occaisional lumpy seas, no worries.

We sailed it alongside, onto moorings, did MOB under sail and engine in those stronger winds all with a furling main too (horror!). It didn't make the tea or scrub itself but I dunno what else you can expect from a boat?

Did it for me.
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I have only sailed 2 Bavs:

1. Bav 42 from 1990
Sailed Nicely, Creaked and groaned with every wave, and bulheads mowved to such an extent that they would have chopped a finger off! All hatches leaked like a sieve. A well used example, ex charter and run by a syndicate for last 8 years.

2. Bav 38 Holiday 1997.
Sailed broad reach from Salcombe in lumpy sea - F4. Broached so readily that I would never ever want to be near it in a rough sea...... I am not a rubbish helm either.....
 
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