Which Marine Diesel?

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bg9208

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I'm afraid that this is a bit of a portmanteau question to which answers are only likely to be generalities and I apologise in advance for asking such an open question but any guidance would be read and inwardly digested (Another column of the spreadsheet filled!).
I am looking, in the not to far distant future, to buy a GRP/Steel centre cockpit cruiser of around 12-15 metres built in the region of 1970-1982 and I am busy doing as much homework as possible, I tend to look upon major purchases as almost a military campaign.
There are a finite number of types and sizes of engines fitted to boats of this size and era and I would be very interested an any suggestions of which are the best bet, ie. reliability, still have availability of spares for rebuilds etc. etc - and which ones are absolute dogs, to avoided where possible. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Perkins ... Perkins .... Perkins ..... keep going on and on and on and on .... Boat of that size - I assume a sailboat - should have a decent size engine and at minimum 4-107 / 4-108. Bigger if possible. Spares / repairs not hard to sort.
 
Don't get a 4107 they were rubbish when they came out of the factory brand new and haven't aged well. The 4108 is slightly better but still an archaic lump of poor design.
If you something cheap and ancient the BMC 2.2 at 50hp is the best all round oldie.
However, for that size of boat you should be looking at a minimum of 100hp.
 
I think you have to decide whether it's a sailing yacht with auxillary (50Hp) or motor sailer (100Hp). I suspect that in 10 years time I will find 100Hp expensive to fuel. I favour Yanmars, but I'd rather have a good volvo than an abused Yanmar. I wouldn't avoid buying the boat I wanted because it had the wrong brand of engine in it, but if the engine was in a poor state, I would seriously reduce what I was prepared to pay for the boat. Personally it's how the boat is when you turn off the motor leaving port that matters.
 
I would suggest that many boats of that age would have been re-engined by now. Otherwise, you you are looking at a 26-38 year old engine, and unless it has been really well looked after, it will either require an overhaul or replacement soon. Not to say that there is anything wrong with engines of this vintage, but something to factor in when considering price.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Don't get a 4107 they were rubbish when they came out of the factory brand new and haven't aged well. The 4108 is slightly better but still an archaic lump of poor design.
If you something cheap and ancient the BMC 2.2 at 50hp is the best all round oldie.
However, for that size of boat you should be looking at a minimum of 100hp.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe my engine is exception ... but it's a 4-107 and ancient. It needs a cosmetic bit of TLC but a) it starts always, b) plods all day long without complaint, c) I can get bits for it, d) is actually more economic than expected, e) in my hands is neglected and expected to perform - which it does.

It burns all fuel that I throw at it ... and some blends I wouldn't sell to my worst enemy ! I've had diesel eng'rs look at it a number of times just in case - 30+ yrs old and still running well with little servicing ? Verdict from all - leave well alone - she's nice ...

If Perkins are that bad - why do so many others rebadge them ? Why are they licenced out to so many countries to build ? Why even old designs like the 4 series still powering generators, pumps and other industrial stuff way way past expected life ?

There are many boats out there with 4-107, 4-108's ..... even older 4-99's. Are they all cr*p ??

Now I'll have to go and sweet talk my Perki .. after she's been called to question ! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
I tend to look upon major purchases as almost a military campaign.

[/ QUOTE ]
In which case its worth bearing in mind Von Moltke's famous dictum (Germany's Chief of the General Staff between 1906 and 1914): "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

By the way, I've got a 1982 Bukh, rebuilt 10 years ago, tough as old boots.
 
To post a counter argument to the pro Perkins lobby /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif How about a Ford! Ford! Ford....naturally aspirated, 2.4, 4 cyl diesel available from Lancing Marine, at eminently sensible prices, roughly 9-10k saving on the ubiquitous Volvo/Yanmar. Parts availability from your local dealer (throughout the World) over the counter at a fraction of marine pricing! Should give you in the region of 85 horses to play with, and about 2.5l per hour consumption /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Refueler,
Where have you been? I wish the rest of the world looked at British diesel engineering though the same rose tinted haze.

6.354 is almost 50 years old and Perkins finally crashed out as an independent manufacturer in 1998. Hardly a success story.

High hopes in 1960 when 6354 went into production, an inline six cylinder engine with many design compromises to allow it to fit into U.S. trucks with V8 gasoline engines. A brave ideal but it never happened.

In the heady 1970’s we had many good engines particularly in the 1 litre displacement node. The Dearborn/Dagenham designed Ford diesel engines were far more robust and better power producers than the Perkins 6.354.

The Leyland 6.98 which actually had BMC roots was streets ahead of both Ford and Perkins, that died in 1987. The couch engineers in Peterborough did the marine version of 6354 up to the Dot4, with a raw water cooled exhaust manifold which is actually designed to corrode in a salt water. The HT6354 had the manifold underneath, when it failed it sunk the boat. Then the Dot4 had the fresh water all in one ‘Manicooler’ oh dear!.

Why did Volvo take the British marine market at a stroke with engines which were more expensive? Volvo kept up the pace of investment and development. The British, they hung up their clogs.

Lister joined up with Petter and after world dominance to the 1960’s. Considerup to 1970 90% of African fishing boats had Listers or Petters.

The Lister Petter forte was small diesel engines. Queens Award to Industry in the mid 60’s to near oblivion now; the world standard today is Kubota, Yanmar, Mitsubishi and Shibura or their clones.

May all those old famous names ‘rust in peace’

Amen
 
[ QUOTE ]
The Lister Petter forte was small diesel engines. Queens Award to Industry in the mid 60’s to near oblivion now; the world standard today is Kubota, Yanmar, Mitsubishi and Shibura or their clones.

May all those old famous names ‘rust in peace’


[/ QUOTE ]

They are still around. Mostly badged under Deutz. The Deutz mid range engines are all Listers.

Look here
 
Perkins Sabre now .... and still in biz.

VP are rebadging and have done for years Perkins Prima and others ...

Sorry but I do not believe in British is best - Japs etc. showed that one for what it really meant.
But despite your and odd other knockers on here - many Perkins are still plodding away pushing boats around ... ancient and modern models.

They may be heavy lumps, they may have faults and quirks - but what engine hasn't ? I'd rather have my Perkins purring away than a VP of similar size thumping away in my boat. If I was to replace my boat - not impossible thought actually in future - TBH - I don't really care what engine it is as long as it runs well.

Boat engines are like cars ......... each has their favourite and bias.

I've had 2 perkins .. first let me down through no fault of it's own ... second is giving excellent service.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the package you need is a Perkins 4236...with a Victory 40 wrapped around it.....both of mine have been going for 35 years......and still look like they`ll go for a long time yet.
www.victory40.co.uk
See also http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2078207/an/0/page/4#2078207

[/ QUOTE ]

Does yours lubricate the bilge from the felt bearing at the back of the crank where it exits the block and sump?
The 4236 is a very sound engine, and the marinisation parts (heat exchanger ) etc were very good.
 
Dave,

I know of Bryco. Rock solid Lister distributors for years. Now they have to have Deutz, Kubota, and Lombardini in their portfolio because Lister could no longer cut it. This is no indication of any joint Lister Deutz stuff.

Deutz have never purchased engines or technology from lister, why should they.

Lister pulled out of European diesel engine constructon trade groups over ten years ago as they could no longer pay their subs they have nothing in their engine portfolio to offer Deutz.
1010/1012 and 1013 Deutz though and though.

Volvo has been badging Deutz motors in commercial marine and automotive applications.

And yes I agree with Refueler the Prima was a Perkins badged by Volvo, after Perkins threw the towel in on marine. Just like they did on the Perkins Perama range which they also handed over to Volvo. However whilst built in Peterborough are actually Japanese Shibura engines.

I had a Nautor Swan stuck in Bermuda for months with a Perkins Perama minor engine problems. Perkins do not want to know it. Falls between cracks of CAT, Perkins, Perkins Sabre.
Worked out more cost effective to repower with Perkins of the same family but badged Volvo.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I know of Bryco. Rock solid Lister distributors for years. Now they have to have Deutz, Kubota, and Lombardini in their portfolio because Lister could no longer cut it. This is no indication of any joint Lister Deutz stuff.

Deutz have never purchased engines or technology from lister, why should they.

Lister pulled out of European diesel engine constructon trade groups over ten years ago as they could no longer pay their subs they have nothing in their engine portfolio to offer Deutz.
1010/1012 and 1013 Deutz though and though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should they?

They bought them in 2004


[ QUOTE ]
The UK Branch also has a Research and Development Centre located in Dursley, Gloucestershire, adding British engineering expertise to DEUTZ’s extensive engine R&D facilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

From the Deutz UK web site here

Deutz press release

[ QUOTE ]
Moving into 2005, Deutz has a number of significant moves directly ahead of it.

* Later this month, the company will begin production of the 15 to 67 hp model D2008 and D2009 diesels it purchased from Lister Petter last year. Since then, Deutz has completed the engineering development of those engines, which fill a key slot in its product portfolio. The acquisition also gives Deutz a new small diesel engineering center in Dursley, England.[ QUOTE ]


From here
 
Dave,

Press releases are not exactly what they seem.

Lister could not pay their bills, they were effectively bust! Bonnie Dean had been hawking LP around the industry since she became CEO.

Company carved up and sold to two differnt companies.

Deutz purchased the LP X range of engines which were not much more than lines on paper. Lister could not afford to develop the engine range. Deutz took everything back to Germany, X range has still not surfaced as a marine engine, unlikely it will.

The rest of the company sold to Etchco 1213 Ltd a ventre capital company which picked up the existing engine line and the old factory with the exeption of the tech centre.

Are you suggesting this is a success story!

Loyal boat owners who purchased LP engines are in the hands of a company intent on turning LP assets into a housing estate, or they were until the crunch, now what.

Who would want to invest in putting a LP engine in a boat knowing the owners of the company are a bunch of Birmingham based asset strippers?
 
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