Which laptop/ notebook/

[lancelot]

Hi.
I am considering buying a laptop or notebook for use on my yacht as a means of navigating.
I would like one with a battery life of 7 hours or more.
The Samsung N11O or N100 seems to have a long battery life . It has a 10.7 inch screen. I don't think it has a cd drive though. I am wondering if the cd drive is essential for loading the chart?
Will I need to have a regulated 240v. inverter or a regulated 12v. supply from the boat's battery?
Would a laptop be better than a notebook and sacrifice battery life?
What other important features would I need to consider?
I would like a programme which would allow passage planning and incorporate AIS.
I would be grateful for any advice. My price range would probably be £300 to 400 for the laptop/ notebook.
Regards,
Keith

 

[aidancoughlan]

Personally, I would look at second-hand Panasonic Toughbooks or ITronix GoBooks on ebay. Read up on the specs to make sure it will run what software you intend to use & ensure you get a good refurbished one. A good second ahnd ruggedised laptop like this should be possible in your price range and will cope with water drips, movement on the boat at sea etc.
Nice machines though they are, I can't image going below wearing soaked oilies in a downpour to fiddle with an N110 for navigation purposes.

I looked around a bit at chart packages recently and the best user interface by far that I could find for on-board use was TIKI navigator, which covers passage planning and AIS, and uses either Maptech BSB charts or Imray Digital charts (both cost effective for UK & Ireland). One thing it does not do (and it's surprising tht many of them do not) is take tides into account when passage planning (ie. proper course to steer).

I use Neptune Navigation's Outline Passage Planner for tidal passage planning (despite it's really bad user interface).

Seapro 3000 seems to be the leading package in the UK, and combines a (slightly) better user interface with proper tidal package planning.

When you are looking at software take particular account of the charts it uses, and research the difference between Vector and Raster charts. I used to assume (marketing hype) that Vector charts were best, but they can sometimes be quite confusing for use at sea when too much detail is turned on, or when the software draws the 'labels' in the wrong places when rendering the chart (as my chartplotter sometimes does).... or when too much detail is turned 'off'!
On a laptop, Raster charts have the distinct advantage of effectively being scanned paper charts - the layout, presentation & details have been refined over many decades.

If you just going to use it onboard in marina's etc for passage planning, I would get a basic 15" laptop instead of a Netbook - it will not cost much more, will give you a better spec, and is usable for other tasks such as DVD viewing etc.

 

[saxonpirate]

saintclair, please don't take this the wrong way, but I certainly wouldn't consider using a laptop for navigation. They are power hungry, not built for the marine environment and subject to crashing (just when you don't need it to) especially if you're using Windows. Ok for passage planning at home or in harbour but that's about it. If on a sailing boat, the need for it to be fixed in position should also be considered.

With a bit of Googling for good deals you could get yourself a purpose built chart plotter with chart and a Nasa AIS unit to link into it for about £400. Both using milliamps instead of Amps. I say that because I have a set up on board with a Lowrance Globalmap 5150c and Nasa AIS which if I remember correctly cost me about £380 total. I use paper charts and conventional navigation though, the electronic stuff is just there as a check.

I do have a laptop on board with a mobile broadband stick, but only use it for normal use/ internet and of coarse for weather forcasting sites. You can get a 12v adapter for under £20 to power it on ebay and plenty of other online stores. I live on board and cruise and have used this set up for years without any problems. Far less hassle than getting into inverters etc.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Hi Keith, for the costs involved I'm still a bit confused as to the benefits of a laptop over plotters. I have used both ( I have a small three year old Standard Horizon CP175 plotter) and apart from the obvious benefits with laptops of size of screen, going on line and using for DVD's, I would still go for a plotter. I get AIS, tides and really good charting by C-map.
Having said that I have been considering a laptop as well for keeping others happy at the ends of the season when conditions are poor and entertainment in the evenings would occassionally help them. Can you convince me of more of the benefits, I do have a wind genny so that helps my position?
As I see it, the laptop has a large current drain on the batteries compared to most plotters and will be susceptible to 'salt damp' and being knocked about both on board and transporting to and fro.
I can remove my plotter quickly to take home to use from a 12v dc supply to put in waypoints etc for passage planning.
The cost of some very good small plotters has also become very competativev yet so to has a laptop.... another Twister owner has just bought a Dell from Tesco at a very sensible price.
Cheers, Scotty

 

[Blue5]

I use a Panasonic Toughbook with Maptech Chart Navigator Pro, I set up an serial output on the nav table connected to NMEA from fixed GPS, we also have NASA ais engine plugged in as well. Battery lasts about 5 hrs and then we plug into 12v socket. I do not see the need to use the laptop/plotter all the time so we usually switch it on for the tricky bits and we have not found the power drain a problem when used this way. The other beauty of this set up is that with with a Wi-Fi dongle we can get latest internet weather as well.
Obviously a lot will say you need a dedicated plotter but this approach works for us

 

[exfinnsailor]

Bit difficult to use the PC on deck in the pouring rain when you are trying to find a cardinal .. Chart Plotter much the better answer if you are going to have only one .. You may also get fed up of going up and down to see where you are .. You do need paper charts as well .. You should also think about what you will do without power .. I bought a cheap second hand gps of ebay .. So you can always plot where you are ..

 

[charles_reed]

Forget any PC as a serious navigation device.
They're too fragile, prone to hangs and just unreliable.

Use a dedicated chartplotter, your insurers will thank you.

I've had to work with the damned things for 20 odd years and wouldn't trust any Windows OS with a mission-critical application.

 

[asteven221]

I have to disagree with most of the comments about using laptops on a yacht. There is absolutely no problem about reliabilty as long as your not stupid. A normal laptop will easily be okay on a boat.The movement of the boat in rough weather will affect you more than any laptop. As far as I can see all the professional round the world racers use laptops. Another thing is - don't get too paranoid about specifications. Go for the obvious ones for your needs e.g. wifi if you want wlan/internet capabilities, but as far as memory, hard disk capacity, cpu speed etc... practically anything built inthe past 8 years will run anything likely to be used by a yachtsman. Laptops have advantages (big screen etc..., cheaper, easeir to use, passage planning at home etc....) whereas dedicated chartplotters have waterproofing for outside use, quicker start up time, easier interfacing to other instuments e.g. Raymarine Seatalk and err cant think of other advantages. It's down to your preferences - but reliabilty shouldn't be a big issue. FWIW I have a computer support company and been at the sharp end of computer support for 25 years, so I think I have some experience to back up what I say. I have in the past built a complete navigation system with wireless keyboard, mouse etc... large flatscreen monitor and integrated with all boat instrumentation. etc.... and never once had a glitch. I have also used a laptop interfaced with a handheld gps. Again no problems. Right now I have a Raymarine system with helm and chartable plotters integrated into radar etc...etc.... and it's brilliant. Also cost the person I bought the boat from £5k and it's going out of date rapidly with bigger and better screens coming on the market. I use a laptop for passage planning because it a whole lot easier and I can do it at home. The laptops also versitile and a good source of current information via the internet.

Like I said - pros & cons.

 

[Searush]

I'm typing this on an Acer Inspire One Netbook on my mooring. I run Tsunami99 on the boat & Fugawi Maps in the car, I can do my e-mails & the forum via my 3G phone & it will run off 12v - or it will do when I sort out the ciggy lighter socket which seems to be past its best after 30 years.

As a back up I have a garmin 76 HH but the screen is tiny & B&W so not that good for chart work. Netbooks are small but have no moving parts (mine has a 120Gb ram drive. I have seperate HD & DVD writers in USB connected caddies.

The cheaper netbooks run Linux, (mine did at £150) but if it has a decent RAM disk like mine, it can be upgraded to run a Windows OS so that almost all S/W is available.

 

[lancelot]

Wow!
Thanks for all the advice from everyone. Loads of info. and a lot to think about. I think it may take some time. I will make do with my small handheld chart plotter for now.
Fair winds to all,
Keith.

 

[Sy-Revolution]

I just bought an Acer 5535 for £350 from Comet. 2mhz Athlon 64, 160gig hd, 4gb ddr2 ram, wifi 802.11b/g/draft-N
Bargain I thought.....

 

[aidancoughlan]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had to work with the damned things for 20 odd years and wouldn't trust any Windows OS with a mission-critical application.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
reliabilty shouldn't be a big issue. FWIW I have a computer support company and been at the sharp end of computer support for 25 years, so I think I have some experience to back up what I say

[/ QUOTE ]

So, we have concensus then ! Been working with the damn things myself not 2- odd years, and I'm sitting on the fence here.

I have a cheap (Lowrance) chartplotter which boots much quicker than any computer, is waterproof, doesnt have bloatware installed. It doesnt do anything else, but is always on when we are on passage, and always works. (Even my Windows phone occasionally gets an "exception" while making a phone call!).
However, last winter I bought a cheap second-hand GoBook on ebay with built in GPS, and use it for passage planning with Neptune Navigator, and it can also show DVD's, browse internet via Wifi for weather reports etc. The plotter normally lives below decks @ chart table on a RAM mount, but I'm thinking of putting a RAM mount under the sprayhood for it, and installing the laptop on the mount at the chart table. If I only had one it would be the plotter, but the laptop is nice to play with. If you get the software that can take tides into account it will make your tidal passage planning much easier - AFAIK (to my surprise) no chartplotter does that yet.

 

[st599]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm typing this on an Acer Inspire One Netbook on my mooring. I run Tsunami99 on the boat & Fugawi Maps in the car, I can do my e-mails & the forum via my 3G phone & it will run off 12v - or it will do when I sort out the ciggy lighter socket which seems to be past its best after 30 years.

As a back up I have a garmin 76 HH but the screen is tiny & B&W so not that good for chart work. Netbooks are small but have no moving parts (mine has a 120Gb ram drive. I have seperate HD & DVD writers in USB connected caddies.

The cheaper netbooks run Linux, (mine did at £150) but if it has a decent RAM disk like mine, it can be upgraded to run a Windows OS so that almost all S/W is available.

[/ QUOTE ]

Switching from Linux to Windows is an upgrade? Wouldn't rely on Windows for anything safety critical and the least said about its filesystem of choice the better.

 

[Refueler]

Blimey - read through this lot and if I knew nothing - Id' still know nothing at end of it !

There are 3 schools of thought in this field : 1) Plotter is the bee's knee's and only solution, b) Notebook is perfect and bee's knee's, and finally c) either has it's place and one is not superior in all respects to other ............ We'll leave out the pencil / paper no electronics dinosaurs that still survive !

I fall into category c). Why ? I like the all-time on display and convenience of the plotter ... lower power draw and less to go wrong .. designed for open cockpit mounting. But when it comes to planning and testing routes / cruise ideas - the PC based comes out on top for ease of panning round and size of screen.

So how far up the processor ladder do you go ? With the money mentioned by OP - he can buy a respectable processor machine - the Toshiba I'm typing on now is Dual Processor, 250Gb drive, DVD Ram drive etc. and was 350 quid. So you have movies, processing, what ever you want. But its' way way over the top for nav use ... a cheap IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad does that for about 100 quid. I have 2 of them and being compact, able to run direct of 12v lead ... fine.

IMHO if you have a reasonable size boat that can cater for a PC at the pilot-house helm / chart table - then fine - it normally means you have the battery bank to cater as well. But if you have a compact cruise / day boat - then it's plainly going to be a consideration to reduce that to suitable plotter that can sit out and also be less power drain.

My preferred way to work - and this produces all I need for good cruise packages ... PC planning at home on Seaclear (does not matter that BSB charts are older KAP versions etc. augmented by scanned later specific area charts ....). Thsi then produces the initial routeing and overall scheme of the cruise. The route is then exported to my Lowrance Plotter and a quick 'fly-through' indicates if any locations / route passage points are suspect - these are then adjusted. So instead of trying to zoom in/out, use cursor control to set up a route ... I do it click by click on PC at far faster rate ...
I don't have to carry PC on board - but do as I have to work 24/7 (be on call ... and also answer emails) ... but it stays for that. The plotter is now doing the work.

My overall costing for PC and plotter incl. charts / cards etc. is less than the 400 quid OP gives as max.

The summary is - that both worlds have their place in this - what OP has to decide is what is most convenient, what suits his boat and use better. It is not others place to decide for him - which is what some posts efectively hint at !! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

One final word : GPS mouse engines ... I have a personal dislike of as they only work plugged into a PC, they add to the PC's desire for battery power - they provide no back-up / emergency capability whatsoever. For similar price a simple handheld as the eTrex etc. can be a much better answer. It works with or without PC ... provides grab-bag emergency use ... dry-cell or 12v lead powered ....
If a PC / PDA designed GPS engine is wanted - then I would prefer a Bluetooth version with 12v power lead ...
But of course first of all consider that IF you go for a PC / Plotter combo - the plotter can feed NMEA data to your PC when you need it. Don't forget also that NMEA data is advantageous for your DSC VHF as well !

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