Which flag?

[Bellacruiser]

We are an early 30s British couple, permanently resident in the UK.

We are looking to buy our own boat in the Med/Adriatic to keep there for a season or so, and then to take a year off work and cruise for 8 months of it (approx late March to November), then revert to keeping it over there somewhere instead of booking chartering holidays for the next few years/whilst we wait for it to sell.

Ignoring Brexit (ha!) and VAT, in terms of inspection and equipment requirements, what would be the preferred EU flag to buy under/transfer to?

I understand that Dutch and Belgian flagging is going to be off the table for us; France has some requirements on expiry dates on flares and liferafts etc. Greece seems to have some inspection requirements albeit these aren't all that costly as I understand.

As there's the two of us only, we will probably keep to sub-12m as this is the threshold for various uplifts/enhancements in requirements and cruising permit costs etc, not to mention mooring fees.

Taking that all into account; what's the preferred flag (and any resources where I can see requirements for them, e.g. I have seen a few Austrian and Slovenian flagged boats) OR is the best just UK flag?!

Thanks in advance, I am currently drowning in the sea of Google!

 

[RupertW]

We still work but sail for a total of about 8 weeks a year in small chunks and have had the boat in Greece, Italy and the Balearics after a few years in Croatia where we bought the boat.

Assuming you have it VAT paid in the EU (but not Britain) then there doesn't seem much downside to getting it registered on SSR. We did that to save time a couple of weeks before we bought the boat, and about 3 months before it was finally deregistered in Croatia. With the SSR there are few obligations whereas under other flags including Croatia there are quite onerous regs including a survival suit for every possible member of the crew as per RCD - in our case 14. And like so many regs there was of course locally bought survival suits with the same material and durability of giveaway carrier bags so no safety actually added.

No probs with SSR now and wouldn't be even with no deal Brexit as it's the VAT paid country and the crew who matter.

 

[Bellacruiser]

Thanks, that's interesting. SSR = British flagged right? Which is easy for us to obtain as British residents.

I'm wondering if post-Brexit there will be any time restrictions on non-EU craft (if that's how an SSR boat would be viewed) being in EU waters? Not necessarily an issue anyway as we are fans of Turkey and Montenegro and would in that case keep it somewhere where one of our trips could take us across the border easily enough for a few days so to speak...

Excluding any requirements for licences for the skipper themselves in certain waters (ICC, VHF), do you have a licence issued in the UK for your radio in that case?

As an aside, excl our extended 8/12 months off work and cruising, for the other periods of ownership we'd be similar to you in terms of usage - any top tips on annual berthing/dry storage vs wet? Where do you keep your boat currently?

 

[Tranona]

Thanks, that's interesting. SSR = British flagged right? Which is easy for us to obtain as British residents.

I'm wondering if post-Brexit there will be any time restrictions on non-EU craft (if that's how an SSR boat would be viewed) being in EU waters? Not necessarily an issue anyway as we are fans of Turkey and Montenegro and would in that case keep it somewhere where one of our trips could take us across the border easily enough for a few days so to speak...

Excluding any requirements for licences for the skipper themselves in certain waters (ICC, VHF), do you have a licence issued in the UK for your radio in that case?

As an aside, excl our extended 8/12 months off work and cruising, for the other periods of ownership we'd be similar to you in terms of usage - any top tips on annual berthing/dry storage vs wet? Where do you keep your boat currently?

You really have no practical alternative to a British registration as you will find you do not qualify to register on registers in other countries.

There is absolutely no problem in having an SSR registration in the EU, now or in the future. Registration of pleasure boats is nothing to do with the EU, but is covered by international marine law.

The freedom of movement of boats around the EU is determined primarily by payment of VAT - that is if the boat is VAT paid or exempt it is free to move irrespective of its flag of registration. This may well of course change after we leave the EU, but it is highly unlikely that any restrictions on boats will be applied retrospectively so existing boats will be free to move as now. Any restrictions on the use of boats is more likely to arise from restrictions placed on persons.

Based on what you have said you should look more carefully at where you cruise as once you leave EU waters your boat will potentially lose VAT paid status and could be subject to further VAT payment if it is re-imported into the EU. This does not cause a problem for temporary periods outside the EU, but longer periods, typically over 3 years can be problematic.

It is useful to have an ICC as although this is not officially compulsory in most coastal waters you may still be asked for your "licence" and this does the job. Your radio Operators certificate is valid internationally and pretty much essential as is insurance. You can find out more about formalities on the "Taking your boat abroad" section on the RYA site.

There are so many different ways of managing boats kept in the Med and there is no one best way so you have to be more specific about what you are looking to do. The liveaboard forum has many threads on the subject and worth having a look to see the pros and cons from other peoples' experiences.

All this is pretty well trod territory (except the post Brexit issues for obvious reasons) and there are many sources of information such as here (including the Blogs section), the RYA and Cruising Association as well as books and magazine articles.

Good luck with your future plans.

 

[RupertW]

Most years we keep an annual berth in a marina nearish to an EasyJet airport. We hire a car at beginning of season and for any winter trips for shopping etc. We move the boat every year or two with a few seasons in Croatia, Ionian and Sporades and now in Menorca. The cheapest years are the ones when we move a good distance as we tend to have just one long sail with the boat up on the hard for Winter and Spring getting work done so it’s ready for our next big trip. Otherwise it’s a few individual week long sails from whatever is our home marina. Those years are a bit like multiple charters but with all your clothes and kit on board already.

 

[prv]

do you have a licence issued in the UK for your radio in that case?

Ship Station license should be issued by the flag state, so that's Ofcom if you're on the SSR. Free and simple online.

One of the terms of the license is that the operator have a certificate of competence; that's your "VHF course" if you don't already have it.

Pete

 

[Bellacruiser]

You really have no practical alternative to a British registration as you will find you do not qualify to register on registers in other countries.

Thanks for replying

A lot of the boats we are looking at (in the name of research only yet) are Croatian flagged and as we'd probably keep the boat there for at least the first two years, I think we would be eligible to retain the flag: "The vessel MAY be registered if the vessel is longer than 2.5 metres or has total propulsion power of more than 5 kilowatts, AND is in full or part ownership of a foreign natural or legal person or person without Croatian citizenship or a citizen of Croatia who has no residence in the Republic of Croatia IF the vessel is predominantly in the sea of the Republic of Croatia." Source: http://total-croatia-sailing.com/blog/owning-registering-boat-croatia-need-know/ however some of the requirements imposed that Rupert mentions make that less attractive.

Him indoors has VHF, Dayskipper etc and working towards the next bits - getting the exams etc done can be in fits and starts as he is RN and has to work around deployments etc.

I think we need to have one eye on Brexit to check there are no implications and otherwise we will probably buy a boat (ideally in Croatia) but flag it UK...we would obviously not want to lose VAT status and wouldn't take it out of EU waters for long, a season maybe.

Most years we keep an annual berth in a marina nearish to an EasyJet airport. We hire a car at beginning of season and for any winter trips for shopping etc. We move the boat every year or two with a few seasons in Croatia, Ionian and Sporades and now in Menorca. The cheapest years are the ones when we move a good distance as we tend to have just one long sail with the boat up on the hard for Winter and Spring getting work done so it’s ready for our next big trip. Otherwise it’s a few individual week long sails from whatever is our home marina. Those years are a bit like multiple charters but with all your clothes and kit on board already.

This is loosely what we'd like to do for the season's we're not off work for the year; Croatian marinas seem to be costly but we do love it, expecially Dalmatia and being London-based (and removing the Sat-Sat of chartering) we have so many flight options.

 

[awol]

I can understand the reluctance to admit to British nationality while abroad. I, for one, get tired explaining that I'm a Scot to soften the antagonism that the English seem to foment. But why limit yourself to an EU flag of convenience? Other states are available e.g. Bermuda allows the masters of its ships to perform marriages, others have measurement regimes which could reduce marina costs.
If it has to be EU, why not Irish?

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for replying

A lot of the boats we are looking at (in the name of research only yet) are Croatian flagged and as we'd probably keep the boat there for at least the first two years, I think we would be eligible to retain the flag: "The vessel MAY be registered if the vessel is longer than 2.5 metres or has total propulsion power of more than 5 kilowatts, AND is in full or part ownership of a foreign natural or legal person or person without Croatian citizenship or a citizen of Croatia who has no residence in the Republic of Croatia IF the vessel is predominantly in the sea of the Republic of Croatia." Source: http://total-croatia-sailing.com/blog/owning-registering-boat-croatia-need-know/ however some of the requirements imposed that Rupert mentions make that less attractive.

Him indoors has VHF, Dayskipper etc and working towards the next bits - getting the exams etc done can be in fits and starts as he is RN and has to work around deployments etc.

I think we need to have one eye on Brexit to check there are no implications and otherwise we will probably buy a boat (ideally in Croatia) but flag it UK...we would obviously not want to lose VAT status and wouldn't take it out of EU waters for long, a season maybe.



This is loosely what we'd like to do for the season's we're not off work for the year; Croatian marinas seem to be costly but we do love it, expecially Dalmatia and being London-based (and removing the Sat-Sat of chartering) we have so many flight options.

As I explained earlier there is no difficulty travelling around the Med, or indeed anywhere in the world with a UK registered boat and no advantage registering it in Croatia.

If you do buy a boat there be very careful about VAT payment as there was a lot of dodgy things going on in 2013/14 when Croatia joined the EU. However if you have the correct evidence that VAT has been paid then it is "permanent" in that it is valid in all EU states. In some ways it may be an advantage having a boat where the VAT was paid in one of the 27 states if any post Brexit restrictions are applied to UK VAT paid boats. That is highly unlikely, but you never know! My last boat was bought in Greece and I paid VAT there. I sailed it back to the UK and sold it. The new owner now keeps it in Spain.

 

[Tranona]

I can understand the reluctance to admit to British nationality while abroad. I, for one, get tired explaining that I'm a Scot to soften the antagonism that the English seem to foment. But why limit yourself to an EU flag of convenience? Other states are available e.g. Bermuda allows the masters of its ships to perform marriages, others have measurement regimes which could reduce marina costs.
If it has to be EU, why not Irish?

You must attract some very dodgy people on your travels.

Having spent a lifetime travelling around the world, with and without my boat I have never once experienced anything negative because I (or my boat) was British. I have experienced nothing but courtesy and friendship.

Don't know where you get the idea that there are EU "flags of convenience" when if you knew anything about the subject you would know that in the EU the only real "flag of convenience" is in fact the Red Duster and UK registration of pleasure boats (which is not restricted to UK nationals) is highly desirable.

I just love your assertion that measurement by the registrar has any effect on marina costs.

Of course your entire post could be a joke as it certainly made me laugh!

 

[Bellacruiser]

I can understand the reluctance to admit to British nationality while abroad. I, for one, get tired explaining that I'm a Scot to soften the antagonism that the English seem to foment. But why limit yourself to an EU flag of convenience? Other states are available e.g. Bermuda allows the masters of its ships to perform marriages, others have measurement regimes which could reduce marina costs.
If it has to be EU, why not Irish?

No reluctance from us whatsoever, I am very proudly British and hubby is in the RN! (He was most put out when he helped some elderly German sailors in Corsica by going up in the Bosun's chair for them to retrieve a line that was rapidly receding into the mast and they thanked him, with gifts etc, and said German/American relations were good! In a bizarre turn of events though once clarified that we're English, turned out one had worked with my dad some 30 years ago...).

Not that fussed what flag any boat has, it was just an attempt to understand a) what options there are (where we even could have a boat registered) and b) out of those, what the pros and cons are; e.g. avoiding onerous inspection requirements or having to carry safety equipment for 8 when we'll never have more than four on board etc.

I also know that Dutch and Belgian flagging recently became a non-option for most, and I think Ireland has done away with it's SSR equivalent IIRC

 

[Tranona]

:

I also know that Dutch and Belgian flagging recently became a non-option for most, and I think Ireland has done away with it's SSR equivalent IIRC

That is because the french in particular were registering their boats in Belgium to avoid the requirements of French registration. As you know UK registration has no equipment or crewing requirements for boats under 13.7m and even between 13.7 and 24m the compulsory equipment is minimal and what you would have anyway.

You can now see why so many Europeans try to register on the British register as in almost all European states there are onerous requirements, typically compulsory licences, specific equipment requirements, restrictions on where you can sail, compulsory regular surveys etc. it is bizarre to think that any UK citizen or resident would even think about registering a boat in a European state!

 

[Irish Rover]

:
I also know that Dutch and Belgian flagging recently became a non-option for most, and I think Ireland has done away with it's SSR equivalent IIRC

Ireland never had an official SSR type registration. The Irish Sailing Association [ISA] issued an unofficial form of registration for a number of years but this was discontinued in 2014 at the request of the Transport Ministry. Full registration [equivalent to the British Part 1] is available for boats owned by citizens of any EU or EEA country but requires a tonnage survey. It's also a bit more messy than UK registration [or Jersey where I registered last year] because you have to deal with 2 different public offices for different parts of the process.

 

[Pump-Out]

No reluctance from us whatsoever, I am very proudly British and hubby is in the RN!

I am appalled, then, that he considers wearing any other ensign other than those approved by HM!!
SSR & RNSA - Job done!

 

[Ningaloo]

I don't think you can write off Brexit in these plans. As things currently stand, after March 2019 you will be limited to 90 days in the Schengen area in any 6 month period. I would not personally make any investment in EU until new legislation is in place improving this situation.

 

[nortada]

You really have no practical alternative to a British registration as you will find you do not qualify to register on registers in other countries.

There is absolutely no problem in having an SSR registration in the EU, now or in the future. Registration of pleasure boats is nothing to do with the EU, but is covered by international marine law.

The freedom of movement of boats around the EU is determined primarily by payment of VAT - that is if the boat is VAT paid or exempt it is free to move irrespective of its flag of registration. This may well of course change after we leave the EU, but it is highly unlikely that any restrictions on boats will be applied retrospectively so existing boats will be free to move as now. Any restrictions on the use of boats is more likely to arise from restrictions placed on persons.

Based on what you have said you should look more carefully at where you cruise as once you leave EU waters your boat will potentially lose VAT paid status and could be subject to further VAT payment if it is re-imported into the EU. This does not cause a problem for temporary periods outside the EU, but longer periods, typically over 3 years can be problematic.

It is useful to have an ICC as although this is not officially compulsory in most coastal waters you may still be asked for your "licence" and this does the job. Your radio Operators certificate is valid internationally and pretty much essential as is insurance. You can find out more about formalities on the "Taking your boat abroad" section on the RYA site.

There are so many different ways of managing boats kept in the Med and there is no one best way so you have to be more specific about what you are looking to do. The liveaboard forum has many threads on the subject and worth having a look to see the pros and cons from other peoples' experiences.

All this is pretty well trod territory (except the post Brexit issues for obvious reasons) and there are many sources of information such as here (including the Blogs section), the RYA and Cruising Association as well as books and magazine articles.

Good luck with your future plans.

Nice one Tranona. Definitive answer.

 

[st599]

I don't think you can write off Brexit in these plans. As things currently stand, after March 2019 you will be limited to 90 days in the Schengen area in any 6 month period. I would not personally make any investment in EU until new legislation is in place improving this situation.

It remains to be seen how the ETIAS scheme will work too.

 

[KellysEye]

When we sailed in the Med we had the British flag up there is no reason to change it.

 

[Graham376]

I don't think you can write off Brexit in these plans. As things currently stand, after March 2019 you will be limited to 90 days in the Schengen area in any 6 month period. I would not personally make any investment in EU until new legislation is in place improving this situation.

OTOH, It could well be better to buy now and base in the EU before Brexit, particularly for those buying a boat in the UK to move there. Many people with boats based in the eastern Med won't be inconvenienced too much by the 90 day rule anyway, several we know haul out from late Oct to April, launch and sail for a while and then come home again for July and August because it's too hot for them and then go back again until haul out.

 

[Bellacruiser]

I don't think you can write off Brexit in these plans. As things currently stand, after March 2019 you will be limited to 90 days in the Schengen area in any 6 month period. I would not personally make any investment in EU until new legislation is in place improving this situation.

We won’t be looking to buy until at least a year from now, so this was just some preliminary thoughts around flags and the implications for maintenance and safety standards ?

As we’ve ended up covering VAT and Brexit anyway, it’s certainly in our minds. However for the majority of ownership we’d be keeping a boat somewhere and visiting to sail for max 3 weeks at any one time, which shouldn’t be an issue. For our sabbatical, we’d have a max of 8 months cruising time and prefer the eastern Med/Adriatic etc so would be flexible and plan as necessary to comply with regs then, moving between Croatia (if we end up treated as all other non-EU nationals then likely to be max 90/180 days but NOT Schengen), Greece (Schengen), and Turkey.