When was the last time you sailed in a force 8?

[LadyInBed]

towards or away from the wind? In what sea state? one direction it's effectively a 9 and the other it's barely a 7.

Yes, it makes a hell of a difference, beating into a 6 is hellish compared to a 7 up your chuff, given that you have the right canvas set!
I don't have a fixed wind instrument, just a hand held. I've noticed that I always underestimate the wind strength so when I check I am always surprised.

 

[Robin]

What a wuss I must be. I never have. I don't suppose the trip from Harwich to Esbjerg counts? (DFDS)
We have done that in a forecast F8 and I really don't think I would want to be in anything smaller.
Sat out a few forecast Gales - the worst was in the outer harbour at Whitehaven before the days of the Marina - it was pretty awful.

Sat out SEVERAL DAYS OF F11+ in Cherbourg on a late summer trip with the lads. we had overnighted in Alderney after a crossing from poole in thick fog (Pre GPS and even decca days) had intended going to St Peter Port but heard the forecast using words not usually heard about an impending depression approaching, so we ran downwind to the fleshpots and shops in Cherbourg . We joined a motley bunch of delivery crews taking new boats to Soton boatshow and later all the cross channel ferries who needed tugs to assist them berth. My then boss would not believe I could not hop a ferry home to get to work on time. QE11 was reported anchored east of the IOW with engines running to relieve loads on the obviously non newgen anchor as it was deemed unsafe to try enter Southamptonor maybe all berths were occupied. W e were in the 'original marina and the pontoons were moving massively in the gusts to the limit of their chains. we had to have someone hold phone box doors closed whilst we rang home (no mobiles then) Adfin's Rival sank in the western approaches in this lot sadly with one life lost. C rews gathered by boats with anemometers every time a bad gust was heard approaching like a runaway train. But then in themidst of this a French single hander arrived in a 30ft Arpege from Chichester he was helped in by locals with a dory and to help tidyup as he was exhausted -RESPECT! We eventually left when conditions moderated to F6/7 had a fastride home downwind but then found some usurper parked on my mooring put there by our club work boat after it broke it's mooring and went walkabout. Pre EU days so we took a chance on 'Customs' went into Salterns marina to get ashore, run to club, call customs and get our mooring freed up. Never heard from customs.

 

[LadyInBed]

That's the one. You guys got hammered because of leaving later (and getting rid of the hangover from the "rum and cards against humanity" session the night before).

I have the joy of not being constrained by time ?

 

[westhinder]

What a wuss I must be. I never have. I don't suppose the trip from Harwich to Esbjerg counts? (DFDS)
We have done that in a forecast F8 and I really don't think I would want to be in anything smaller.
Sat out a few forecast Gales - the worst was in the outer harbour at Whitehaven before the days of the Marina - it was pretty awful.

Not at all, that was the point of my OP. The vast majority will never be out in a force 8, or when something approaching 8 is in the forecast, and rightly so. So all the talk of ‘this boat will save your life in extreme conditions‘ has no bearing on the way most people use their boats and hence the choices they make.
Maybe I should have asked ‘hands up all who have never sailed in a force 8?’

 

[Stemar]

But then in themidst of this a French single hander arrived in a 30ft Arpege from Chichester he was helped in by locals with a dory and to help tidyup as he was exhausted -RESPECT!

Respect for his ability - and luck. Less sure about respect for his judgement.

 

[Stemar]

Not at all, that was the point of my OP. The vast majority will never be out in a force 8, or when something approaching 8 is in the forecast, and rightly so. So all the talk of ‘this boat will save your life in extreme conditions‘ has no bearing on the way most people use their boats and hence the choices they make.

Most of us don't need that boat because we'll never go out of range of a reliable forecast, in either distance or time. It's a different matter if you're crossing oceans, but the only reason most people need to go out in bad weather is the need to be at work on Monday, and that's a really stupid reason to die.

 

[steve yates]

the forecast 5 turned into a 7 gusting 8 on a run in our Sun Odyssey 30i.

Helming was hard work. The waves kept robbing us of our speed causing the rudder to lose grip and broach repeatedly. My partner was worried about a crash gybe bringing the mast down.

At the risk of deviating into that old conversation again, and not having much experience of this kind of stuff. Was that a boat model issue?
I just cant help but read that and think that I would not want a boat that cannot sail in a force 7 ! (and ok, I know my bradwell 18 couldn't but for "proper" bigger boats, you know what I mean.

 

[Koeketiene]

I’m with you there, if I can avoid it, I will. But sometimes you can’t, or it overtakes you, or you’ve run out of luck, and then it’s nice to know your boat will handle it well.
I’m not sure it has to be an older boat, there were enough older designs that would be pigs in heavy weather and there are still very good new boats being designed and built. It depends on the designer’s brief and the yard’s approach. And your wallet, obviously

A few years ago, I had the pleasure of chatting with a retired yacht designer.
One of his comments really stuck with me: up till the late 80's, early 90's boats where designed to sail safely in any weather.
Then came the realisation that the large majority of our customers didn't really go out in anything over a Force 5.
This lead to the trend of building boats down to a price.

I am sure that go anywhere anytime boats are still being built today, but I wouldn't be able to afford one of those. ☺

 

[steve yates]

Only at sea in big ships, the first time was when I worked on cruiseships as a photographer, in the ss amerikanis, we were returning to the caribean from Bermuda, and got caught up on the edge of a hurricane, we were in it for 2 days, the doors were closed and sealed and noone allowed on decks. I went up to the bridge at the nav officers invitation and it was aweinspiring. Watching walls of water approaching, then breaking over the bow and the bridge, I ducked at the first one I was very very glad I was on an old ship, built like a destroyer drawing 26ft with accom for 600 passengers, (She was originally the SS Kenya Castle, built for the Capetown mail packet run I believe.) rather than the fancy new carnival line ships being built at the time, with rounded bottoms drawing 15ft , but very high sides with accom for 2000 passengers. Second time was crossing Biscay in a force 11 when I worked on Brittany Ferries, on the Val De Loire. My cash register in the photo lab flew from the counter at the end and hit the far wall 20 feet away! I had to drain all the chemicals from the processing machines. Some of the wagons broke their chains and crushed the cars in the lanes beside them and we had a fleet of 11 ambulances waiting at Santander to whisk away injured passengers with broken bones. I think every ship in Brittany Ferries fleet was damaged that weekend.

 

[Robin]

Respect for his ability - and luck. Less sure about respect for his judgement.

said a lot for the boat too, h had no auto pilot either, but crazy as a box of frogs. ?

 

[LadyInBed]

Is a big boats 8 a small boats 6?
At the end of Aug 87 I went down to Dartmouth regatta with my youngest (9 y.o.) daughter, we had a fantastic night sail down in my 22 ft Swin Ranger (a tub by sailors standards). The rest of the family came down by train and a good time was had by all. My youngest having missed out in the train ride down went back by train with the others leaving me to take the boat home. As the weather was so nice I naively hadn't bothered to look at the forecast and on leaving the shelter of Dartmouth was faced with a NE4 so resigned myself to a long ride back to Weymouth.
Well the 4 built to an E5 maybe gusting 6 and I realised that getting to the Bill would be hard work and wouldn't be wise and getting round it would be impossible so I diverted to Lyme, they were the days when you could get into the harbour, before the Council blocked off the NE corner that allowed the harbour to flush out. With a well reefed roller genoa and boom roller main I had a good sail to Lyme but with lots of breaking waves and spray. As the boat is a 'Pilot Saloon' I sat inside in the dry and let the AH1000 (wrapped in a plastic bag) do the work.
Visiting the HM to ask him if the boat was ok where I had put it for the night and to ask to use the phone (pre mob) to call my wife to come and collect me it turned out that the HM lived in the same town as me, so he gave me a lift home.
So to ask the question again, as I digressed, Is a big boats 8 a small boats 6?

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Slight aside.

I recently had a Garmin watch for my birthday. The kind of thing you would never buy yourself possibly.

I felt a vibration and it was telling me of Storm Bella on it's way. Got many hours of notice too.

Changed my mind about not buying it for yourself.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

The last time I got caught I had the luxury of not being skipper and stayed downstairs. I drew upon my experience from similar events and handed him out a saucepan. He was grateful once I'd explained that if he wore it on his head the 1" hailstones wouldn't hurt. The TackTic transducer was reporting 60kts when it departed the masthead, but we think it was the hail that took it out.

 

[jimi]

here's m post from Nov 2003

Brian\'s lost his glasses ... long post

They fell off a boat somewhere around Cap de la Hague and he wants them back ...

It started like this ..

Sunday morning in Cherbourg 4 of us sitting there trying to work out the weather and the options. All of us experienced sailors. The weather forecast had been “funny” for the last couple of days. Complex patterns, etc. warnings on Sat of gales, gale came through on Sat evening and all the forecasts were now talking of NE 4/5 ..drat .. oh well, we’ll see what we can make and if we can’t make the Needles we’ll go to Poole. Left Cherbourg in a Southerly F3,full 6 hours of westward tide to run, weather brightening slowly behind us. There was a big swell running, breaking over the outer breakwater coming from the north, must be the residue of last nights gale. We were almost on a dead run, tried various things flying the chute with the pole tacked out etc but everything just flapping in the swell , the engine was switched on and we motored north .As we were between the shipping lanes there were a few ominous clouds ahead, so we put in the first reef just in case. The helm suddenly said,”Hey look at this on the radar”. There was a large black echo about half a mile across, it grew as we watched! “Shit, its going to be wet.” We put in another reef and got the oilies on. As we converged with the weather the wind switched to North and very rapidly got up to 20+ knots and visibility deteriorated rapidly in the heavy driving rain. We continued motorsailing northwards in an everstrengthening wind, the rationale being that it was an isolated storm and we should get through it soon. The radar now showed solid black around us for 5 miles, the wind was now F8 and the sea was building rapidly, heading north we could only make 2Knots motorsailing, if we cracked off to 330ish we were doing 5 to 6 knots. We did this for the next 30 minutes. This was clearly no longer an isolated storm! Our position was now mid channel in a N F8 (and building) south of Portland Bill. Um options were now limited
1) We could continue, head towards Dartmouth .. but forecast for the Plymouth area had been gales and if the engine went we’d be stuffed
2) Eastwards not really an option, it would involve staying mid channel amongst shipping lanes
3) Run back to Cherbourg , still an hour of westerly tide and then 6 hours of easterly

Took the decision to run back to Cherbourg,, we turned and in the very confused seas, we gybed twice rapidly. Scandalised the main by dropping the halyard and got a bit of jib out. Dropped the main.

Ok time for a deep breath. We ran back initially about 160/170 but with the still W going stream it was giving us a 180 over the ground. I was now very cold because my oilies had leaked as I had helmed for the previous period. Eventually went downstairs and changed completely, as I was sodden through. Felt a lot better and had a good look at our position, we were now about 10 miles North of the Alderney Race with slack water coming up, the danger time would be when the race started squirting north, wind against tide .. not a good place to be .. we needed to get East Asap to get away from the danger zone. I sat at the Chart plotter and painfully sweated as I monitored our position and progress.
It was now pitch black of course, Graham and Lindsey were up stairs. I was sitting at the chart table Brian was relaxing downstairs as well.

I also started to relax a little as we were now 8 miles NNE or so of Cap de la Hague and the seas seemed to be starting to ease.
Just then .. BANG ..I flew across the saloon, something hit me on the head, and there I was perched in the corner between saloon wall and the roof, cushions, contents of fridge, lockers, cabin sole, Brian were flying through the air .. time stood still .. I looked up at the hatchway expecting to see the contents of the Atlantic entering … but dry. The boat gradually started to recover, I started to stand up, BANG the process was repeated … shit this is it … we’re going over .. I can recall looking at Brian and thinking “He’s thinking the same as me!” ..

Unbelievably the boat came up again, stench of diesel everywhere, shouted up Graham and Lindsey were still there … Graham had been on the helm and had been completely submerged in water. Apparently he’d seen just at the last second a large 10-15ft curling breaking wave hitting us! We recovered and carried on. Just then the engine overheating alarm (we’d had it on ticking over to keep batteries charged) went off. This was developing into a serious situation. I radioed Cherbourg CG

1)To advise them of our situation and position
2)To check the radio was still working after the mast had been in the water

They responded immediately in excellent English asking if we wished assistance, I said not at the moment but I would radio in when we reached the Grande Rade and expected to be there in 90 minutes. A nearby Ship offered to come and assist us (many thanks Europa .. I think) but we were in no immediate danger and should have no problems making and entering the western entrance.

Gradually the seas slackened off and we entered Cherbourg without too much drama. The engine started and gave us enough to berth up with .

The diesel had come from the spare can in the locker which had whacked the locker roof, cracked the cap and spilled diesel into the cockpit through the locker lid.

We suspect that the engine overheated because when the engine intake was exposed it had sucked air and caused an airlock.

Unbelievably the only damage done was a bent stanchion and a shredded dodger ..

.. oh and a few bruised ribs etc

Strange where thing end up … found a fishing reel that had been in an aft cabin under one of the cabin soles!

That’s the story and I’ll do the learning points later

Oh and Brian’s lost his glasses …

 

[johnalison]

I too have learned to be suspicious of yachtsmen's tales of derring-do in gales. I have recorded 58 knots true wind while sailing, but it was only a flurry that came off a Swedish island, and we hardly noticed it. When people I know say they came back across the Channel in a F8, I can assume that it was a 6 with some gusts of 7-8. Others I know claim to have sailed back in a gale from Ostend to Essex with the wind on the nose. In these cases I know that they mean they did it on a close fetch in one tack. It is scarcely possible to sail a 28-footer directly against the wind across the N Sea in anything over F5, and even that would take forever.

There is also a great difference between a fully-crewed boat and a short-handed one. In an average boat of, say, 35' a crew of four can take half-hour watches and probably enjoy themselves. With only two of us, and one unhappy in marginal conditions, it is a very different matter and I for one wear my cowardice with pride.

 

[Laminar Flow]

A few years ago, I had the pleasure of chatting with a retired yacht designer.
One of his comments really stuck with me: up till the late 80's, early 90's boats where designed to sail safely in any weather.
Then came the realisation that the large majority of our customers didn't really go out in anything over a Force 5.
This lead to the trend of building boats down to a price.

I am sure that go anywhere anytime boats are still being built today, but I wouldn't be able to afford one of those. ☺

The reality as expressed in statistics is:

95% of the time spent sailing is done in winds under F6 or about 25kts.
Of this about 80% is in winds under F5 or about 15 kts.

These are the simple facts.

 

[Alicatt]

1972 on the ferry from Newcastle to Kristiansand in Norway it blew up and the passengers disappeared one by one as the wind rose, there was only 3 left in the dining room, Joe, my dad and myself and the ships crew kept teasing us that we were looking green, my dad and Joe, a business colleague of my father, went outside and my dad filmed him bracing against the wind, they copped it from the crew for that stunt
Next morning it was only the three of us for breakfast, mum had a happy pill to calm the seasickness and she said "Why should I worry when there is a guy up there paid to worry for us" while she pointed up at the bridge.
The ship was MS Balmoral of Fred Olsen Lines

 

[stav]

Returning from my first trip across the channel at age 18 caught W gale for the last few hours from Cherbourg to Poole. A little scampi 26' with waves breaking across her but plenty of ballast. Lot later beat up the solent in a sigma 362 in gust 55knts in the gusts we just went side ways. More recently (10yrs ago) I would put out if the gale was due to a passing front and only going to be around for a few hours. Went out earlier this summer in my 35' westerly conway off the Jersey S coast in low 30 knts with wind over a big tide and close to some shallows caught a breaking wave beam on and would describe that as a bit hairy. I have spent the summer trying to go out in more wind and have come to the conclusion 40knts is about the limit. But tide, relative direction and duration are important factors. Along with the attitude it is ok to heavy too to change sails, warm a meal etc. I also think it depends on the time of year and more able to cope with wind later in the season when the stomach is stronger!

 

[Koeketiene]

The reality as expressed in statistics is:

95% of the time spent sailing is done in winds under F6 or about 25kts.
Of this about 80% is in winds under F5 or about 15 kts.

These are the simple facts.

I am not disagreeing with those statistics.
But I feel more at ease on a boat I know will behave itself in that 5-20% segement of F5-F6 plus conditions.
I think most of us try to avoid unpleasant conditions if at all possible, but even these days it is possible to get caught out.
And when the excrement does hit the ventilation, I'd rather not have to worry about the boat.

It's like that spare tire anology I mentioned earlier in this thread: I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[LittleSister]

Anoccasionalyachtsman's mention above of hail reminds me of an incident, not a real gale, although winds may well have reached gale force.

Two up on some AWB (Dufour?) of 29(?) foot in the Ionian. We were notionally on a flotilla, but had been allowed to go off on our own, and had been to some lesser visited place to the south (I forget which). Returning north-west the next morning, hot sun, as usual light winds. We were in shorts and T shirts. I saw a big black cloud approaching, and commented 'We might be in for a wetting'. We donned the lightweight waterproof nylon jackets and over-trousers we'd brought with us.

When the squall hit we were just entering to pass through the Dragoneras, an irregular cluster of rocky small (uninhabited?) islands with a poorly marked isolated rock somewhere in the middle of the open area between the islands we were about to pass through. The strength of the wind was shocking, and with it big lumps of hail. We could barely see beyond the boat anyway, and couldn't look forward because of the hail.

Turning the key and having the engine starting straight away was such a blessed relief. I vowed there and then I'd get a diesel inboard (I'd previously only had outboards). We somehow managed to get the sails down. I turned the boat 180 degrees to retrace our track away from from the dangers of the islands and rocks, and this would give us a good bit of time before we gradually approached, at a shallow angle, the steep-to coast of high (and hence better visible) cliffs we had left some time before. With bare poles and the engine in reverse at low-ish revs we were still doing about 3.5 knots!

The squall soon passed, thank goodness, but there was an impressively large heap of hail piled up right at the front of the saloon, where it had blown in through the companionway and along the length of the saloon, and the First Mate's legs were covered in bruises she'd got from being hit by the hail through the nylon over-trousers!