Wheelyboat accident 6/22 any info please ?

[DownWest]

Just a note: Those cammy seatbelts were'Kangol' or summit close. We fitted them to our cars as soon as available.
Wheelchairs would need to be locked down and LJd worn, along with quick release seat belts. A/C ones are fairly simple but not built for a marine atmosphere.

 

[crewman]

To add to what I said earlier, if someone is strapped to their chair it is unlikely it will have quick releases fitted. Many chairs nowadays are powered so have batteries, motors and associated controls etc and are pretty heavy. I doubt if any available LJ would support a person strapped into a powered chair. People with such disabilities usually do not have the ability to swim well if at all. Hence our policy of displacement speeds only when a passenger must be strapped into a chair. Remember the whole objective of wheelyboats is to allow chair users to go boating.

 

[lustyd]

I feel like you’re tarring them all with the same slightly discriminatory brush. I’m sure a lot of wheelchair users are great swimmers (I’ve seen them on tv ) and I’m sure quite a few like to be treated as adults and given some choices about risk. Fair enough as a business you have to risk assess, but the above statement seems pretty off to me.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Reading through and thinking through this matter , seems to me that a persons Disability or lack of Mobility just might have to be assesed before they are taken out in such Mobility Boats ; the issues being , wether they have the ability to swin with a LJ on ? cannot see that many Boats could manage with a powered Mobility Scooter on board , blimey , it would probably upset any balance on the boat ? so guess that the 'not' powerd Mobility Chairs would on allowed on a boat ? My Powered Mobility Scooters were mainly far to heavy to lift up any height at all , some had to be seperated , the batteries removed , the front steering removed , etc etc

Maybe there is a place for specially designed Chairs that would suit persons with disability ? maybe with built in Boyancy , designed to float upright maybe ?

Just maybe the ideals are just out of reach , at the mo ?

 

[DownWest]

Mostly, ,people wander off in boats that that suite them. Why should it be any different to reduced mobility types?
Just get the safety aspects sorted. Seems that there has been a lack of that.

 

[Clunk]

Well Mr Clunk that all sounds like very good work that you do , but might suggest , as someone who requires certain simple hand rails hand holds etc , etc , these 'obstacles' as you put it are actually 'enablers' so that us that needs them can do things and go where we are not able to do without them ; often quite simple things like providing Hand Holds attatched so that we can do /access things /places that otherwise will become difficult , or impossible for us to safely do

I think you misunderstood me there, I would never suggest that the aids put in place were in anyway an obstacle. The obstacles are the red tape put In place that take over assessing each person, situation and circumstances on there own merit and unfortunately often just coming up against a ' no that's not possible'.

 

[oldharry]

I can imagine so: when I was still working, we used common sense in risk assessing what we did. Having worked voluntarily untill recently as Lead Safety Officer at a biannual Youth Event, I am aware that risk assessment has come a very long way, and if the assessed level of risk mitigation and residual risk levels do not add up then that's that. Insurers depend on the risk assessments to assess their own risk, and unless the assessment can show risk has been minimised, they will not provide cover.

 

[ylop]

Interesting. I have a lot of experience of wheelchair transport on land, but not afloat. But the issues are the same. There is (was) no quick release system to enable rapid evac of wheelchair bound people in an accident or fire.

Back in the early 90s I was caring for a young wheelchair user when we were refused access to a tram because, "he's a fire hazard". I presume that my logical arguments that disabled people were not known for self combusting (it wasn't even an electric chair!) and that the only other passenger on the tram "demanded to be let off if they expected it catch fire in the next 3 miles were what won them over and not the fact that I'd parked the wheel chair half on - half off the tram so it couldn't move whilst the discussion continued messing up the schedule!

My point here is be very carefully about assuming wheelchair users pose a greater risk - the severity of a problem MAY be increased by being in a wheel chair but the likelihood of the original event is usually not.

It will be interesting to see the report, not only how it happened, but to see their recommendations. However the incidence of fatalities from Wheely boat must be very very low.

MAIB reports are remarkably similar - human failures will almost certainly be a major contributor. In my reading of 80+% of MAIB cases the accident could have been avoided or consequences mitigated if one or more people had applied a bit of thought, but knowing what to think is easy with 20:20 hindsight.

Because it is easy to pick holes in and "audit" the MAIB have a tendency to focus on the paperwork / documentation side of things rather than really getting to the culture/behaviours which often contribute to these things.

Would the same sort of thing that automatically releases a life raft not work?

The boat wasn't reported to have sunk so presumably not.

 

[Stemar]

I doubt if any available LJ would support a person strapped into a powered chair.

True - simple floats are unlikely to be enough, as a lightweight leccy chair weighs close to 25kg, and more substantial ones double that.

Yes, a good number of wheelchair users are good swimmers, but many are not, and some of those would be unable to do much to help themselves in any sort of emergency. The needs of disabled people are as varied as they are.

 

[Capt Popeye]

Mostly, ,people wander off in boats that that suite them. Why should it be any different to reduced mobility types?
Just get the safety aspects sorted. Seems that there has been a lack of that.

Wellk believe me it IS different : for a start boat lay up or moorings ; Our local River does not offer a sort of easy acess for Disabiliy boaters , the Dingy Racks have mostly vertical Rack storage , bloody impossible for us with mobility /strength issues to hold a Dinghy up to stand on its Transom so get it into or out : Close inshore Mooring /easy access are NOT available to us with Mobility issues , Local Council and Harbour Authority have not been sympathetic in the past ; this I do hope will change in the near future (New HM in post )

Often Disabiliy goes with Strength and Breathing issues , even Balance issues , so duno how that aids swimming for one's life ?

 

[DownWest]

[QUOTE="Capt Popeye, post: 8140885, member: 72723"

Often Disabiliy goes with Strength and Breathing issues , even Balance issues , so duno how that aids swimming for one's life ?
[/QUOTE]
If one has to swim, then something has gone badly wrong before that. I had to do that once and the LJ failed too.
Being able to ditch the wheel chair and wait for rescue in an LJ is best result for the course if the boat sinks. If hitting something, then having the chair fixed down and being belted in would be essential.

 

[oldharry]

I feel like you’re tarring them all with the same slightly discriminatory brush. I’m sure a lot of wheelchair users are great swimmers (I’ve seen them on tv ) and I’m sure quite a few like to be treated as adults and given some choices about risk. Fair enough as a business you have to risk assess, but the above statement seems pretty off to me.

Why? Do you seriously think we see a representative cross section of the wheelchair community on telly? And there is not one wheelchair user who is able to use their mind who would not want to be treated as an adult, or even as an individual. Most of them have very little choice about what they do, who they share their accomodation with, what they eat, and how they spend their time. This is slowly improving, but seriously hampered by lack of funds, and lack of trained staff and facilties.

The more choice we can give them, the better their quality of life - which for many is abysmally low because opportunities to try new activities and skills are few and far between compared to what is on ffer to the rest of us. But they cannot know as boat owners do, what is safe afloat, so they have to rely on us to ensure their safety.. OK 21st century H&S is more than a little OTT, but if we can give these people 'adventures' and do it safely, then that can only be good.

I've spent half my life working professionally caring for people with serious physical and mental impairments, and I can asure you Lustyd's comments reflect the reality of millions of wheelchair users.

 

[lustyd]

The vast majority of wheelchair users are completely independent people. The ones I referred to on telly were olympians who managed to become world class athletes in spite of people treating them as though they can't do anything and need to be wrapped in cotton wool. Yes, some people are severely disabled, but it's extremely outdated to discuss disability in this way

 

[Stemar]

The vast majority of wheelchair users are completely independent people. The ones I referred to on telly were Olympians who managed to become world class athletes in spite of people treating them as though they can't do anything and need to be wrapped in cotton wool. Yes, some people are severely disabled, but it's extremely outdated to discuss disability in this way

I sailed with a blind skipper with no vision at all, a former Paralympic sailor. His take on it was that the biggest handicap disabled people face is the idea that they can't do stuff. He was a far better helm than me, tacking to the wind on his cheeks and only needing someone to tell him if something was in the way. He would NOT give up. I've seen him trying to do something and failing, but trying again and again, with tears of frustration in his eyes, even though he knew I was there and only too happy to help. He got it done. Do I need to say I admire him immensely?

 

[Yorkshire Exile]

I am rarely surprised by oganisational failure, and I rarely would bother to coment publicly but this is so needlessly awful it makes me weep.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/670f9ab83b919067bb48326a/2024-14-Wheelyboat123.pdf

 

[penberth3]

I am rarely surprised by oganisational failure, and I rarely would bother to coment publicly but this is so needlessly awful it makes me weep.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/670f9ab83b919067bb48326a/2024-14-Wheelyboat123.pdf

I know it's a slow process, but I would hope a few people appear in court over this. Avoidable deaths and rescuers risking their own lives.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I am rarely surprised by oganisational failure, and I rarely would bother to coment publicly but this is so needlessly awful it makes me weep.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/670f9ab83b919067bb48326a/2024-14-Wheelyboat123.pdf

Classic case of things falling down cracks. Looks like noone escapes some degree of culpability. And the effect of free water on an open deck has been well known since Herald of Free Enterprise capsized!

I have experienced it myself; I ended up in the water - but I wasn't strapped to an electric wheelchair!

 

[westernman]

It seems to me that the only sensible way of doing things is to attach the wheel chairs to the deck. If the passenger needs to be attached to the wheel chair, then there needs to be a way for this to be released in an emergency. There seems to be a lack of automatic systems to do the release - but this should not be that difficult to do - for instance a hammer lifejacket kind of thingy which drives a nail to release a spring loaded lever instead of making a hole in a co2 cylinder. With a manual override as well of course.

 

[Mark-1]

I know it's a slow process, but I would hope a few people appear in court over this.

Might put people off taking out highly vulnerable people in future.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

It seems to me that the only sensible way of doing things is to attach the wheel chairs to the deck. If the passenger needs to be attached to the wheel chair, then there needs to be a way for this to be released in an emergency. There seems to be a lack of automatic systems to do the release - but this should not be that difficult to do - for instance a hammer lifejacket kind of thingy which drives a nail to release a spring loaded lever instead of making a hole in a co2 cylinder. With a manual override as well of course.

The problem is that electric wheelchairs aren't designed with boating in mind, so quick release mechanisms aren't in the design brief. Fitting such things would a) be unnecessary for the vast majority of users and b) increase the cost of equipment that is already expensive for most users. It seems to me that it would be better if the boats were equipped with suitable wheelchairs (probably not motorised) that could a) be locked in place and b) had quick release harnesses and c) were equipped with suitable buoyancy. The failure point in this case seems to me to be that a) users had to be strapped into their wheelchair for safety reasons (these were people with severe mental and physical handicaps) and b) they were allowed to use their own equipment which wasn't adapted for boating in any manner.

But if the boat had been properly maintained and operated, the accident wouldn't have happened.