What's your opinion about clipping on?

[tom_sail]

I attained a RYA big weekend a few weekends ago where MOB methods and guidelines were discussed.

It was said that on high performance racing yachts it is ill-advised to clip on and much safer to be flushed off and "hopefully" plucked up safe and well.

I have thought about this for a week now and although I can see the RYA's logic I'm not sure if I totally agree.

Firstly what's classed as a "performance racing yacht"?
Volvo 70?
J/105 and above?
Open 40&60?
Some people may class a performance racing yacht as a benny first 31.7+ or a sigma or something similar.

Secondly, these performance racers will most liking have downwind sails up. Let's say these boats average 15 knots that is a lot of boat to slow down and sails to pack while the MOB is left behind.

My solution: I would have a line loosely coiled on the pushpit with a bowline loop. If a crew member ever went overboard while being clipped on I would clip his life line into the bowline making sure the other end was tied to the boat. This would drag him/her 10-20 metres behind the boat instead of getting smashed up against the hull.

What's the general opinion on this? And the RYA's view of advising not being clipped on?

 

[apward]

Rya are advising 'don't clip on'. Are you sure? OK. There are recorded incidents where drowning has occurred because of the resting position of the dragged crew member. But I'd rather remain attached to the boat and carry a knife capable of cutting my line, than drift off in the dark.

 

[tom_sail]

Rya are advising 'don't clip on'. Are you sure? OK. There are recorded incidents where drowning has occurred because of the resting position of the dragged crew member. But I'd rather remain attached to the boat and carry a knife capable of cutting my line, than drift off in the dark.

My opinion to. The RYA were saying being clipped onto a high performance racing yacht is more dangerous then being flushed clear.

 

[john_morris_uk]

There is a debate to be had about the merits of clipping on if there is a risk of going overboard a boat which is travelling at hight speeds - say over 15 knots. Being towed alongside at speed will drown someone very quickly and its a matter of calculating the risks.

Why not use personal EPIRBS and/or one of those modern location systems - and accept the risk of falling overboard but with a good chance of being found is better than the almost certain battering and drowning you would get from being towed by a lifeline at high speed?

 

[prv]

I don't think your long line would help. I've been dragged behind a boat at three knots and that was uncomfortable; at 15 knots it would be untenable.

The answer must be to clip on in such a way that you can't go over the side in the first place.

Having a quick-release at the harness end of the tether, so that you can release if the situation does require it, must be better than not clipping on at all.

Pete

 

[Submariner!]

In fog, does one clip on or not?

Discuss.

 

[Seajet]

Yes, clip on !

With proviso's...when harnesses first came into use, some people found they were attached by their spliced on lines to sinking boats, so a clip at each end was developed ( you still need to take a pull on the line to take tension off the hook, may be difficult if wearing an auto inflate lifejacket unless one's quick or has a knife ).

Then after the 1979 Fastnet, the Gibb double action hook which hopefully can't undo itself seemed a rather good idea.

I've never liked jackstays on the sidedecks, they roll underfeet or trip up crew and if fabric will get knobbled by U.V; while not perfect, the best solution I've found is centreline harness eyes which don't let people wander too far, and triple harness lines to get along the boat.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Yes, clip on !

With proviso's...when harnesses first came into use, some people found they were attached by their spliced on lines to sinking boats, so a clip at each end was developed ( you still need to take a pull on the line to take tension off the hook, may be difficult if wearing an auto inflate lifejacket unless one's quick or has a knife ).

Then after the 1979 Fastnet, the Gibb double action hook which hopefully can't undo itself seemed a rather good idea.

I've never liked jackstays on the sidedecks, they roll underfeet or trip up crew and if fabric will get knobbled by U.V; while not perfect, the best solution I've found is centreline harness eyes which don't let people wander too far, and triple harness lines to get along the boat.

Although your points regarding systems which don't allow you to fall overboard are valid, in some circumstances, such a system just isn't possible in all circumstances.

Furthermore, your suggestion to have a knife to cut yourself free sounds good in theory, but I don't think you understand what being dragged along on a harness at high speed is really like. You would have to be superhuman - or VERY lucky to manage to sort things out - get the knife out and cut yourself free at even five or ten knots let alone any sort of real speed at all. And some of the performance yachts we are talking about in this thread will be travelling at well over 15 knots at times.

On ordinary cruising boats I am all for always clipping on at night times and whenever conditions deteriorate, but have a look at some of the films of high performance yachts sailing, and have some imagination as to what being towed on a harness would be like before you suggest that clipping on a high speed machine would be safe.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

In fog, does one clip on or not?

Discuss.

Do your own risk assessment for foggy days: area sailing in, crew capabilities, sea conditions, wind speed bla bla bla.

 

[capnsensible]

I've sailed in fog a fair bit. I always take the view that if someone fell overboard, you are going to easily loose sight of them. So clip on. Same as at night, really.

Modern lifejacket and harnesses are easy to use and ok for comfort. Cockpit d rings and webbing jackstays make it simple to stay safe, I reckon.

Could also consider how rough it would be to make recovery difficult. If its going to be a pain, how about clipping on?

Got a lifesling on both my boats to assist recovery, but would prefer not to have to!

 

[Seajet]

Although your points regarding systems which don't allow you to fall overboard are valid, in some circumstances, such a system just isn't possible in all circumstances.

Furthermore, your suggestion to have a knife to cut yourself free sounds good in theory, but I don't think you understand what being dragged along on a harness at high speed is really like. You would have to be superhuman - or VERY lucky to manage to sort things out - get the knife out and cut yourself free at even five or ten knots let alone any sort of real speed at all. And some of the performance yachts we are talking about in this thread will be travelling at well over 15 knots at times.

On ordinary cruising boats I am all for always clipping on at night times and whenever conditions deteriorate, but have a look at some of the films of high performance yachts sailing, and have some imagination as to what being towed on a harness would be like before you suggest that clipping on a high speed machine would be safe.

I have been overboard from stationary yachts ( in a fair tide ) and high performance dinghies, I remember one such going past and my salvation was to grab a halliard which had trailed through a self-bailer.

I've been outside boats and aircraft, each time unable to raise an arm against the flow, so have an imagination about forces.

I'd rather be attached to the boat than off it, at very high speeds I'd suggest one's time is up anyway unless the helmsperson catches on & does something about it.

I suppose at over about 8 knots I'd quite fancy a designed break on the harness line, PLB and a Jonbuoy, though the point's moot if no-one is stopping or coming back.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I've sailed in fog a fair bit. I always take the view that if someone fell overboard, you are going to easily loose sight of them. So clip on. Same as at night, really.....

To me its not an easy call. I have sailed with an organisation that insisted on lifejackets in fog (pre useless unless worn days) and not clipping on due to the fact that collision situations are not readily noticeable in fog.

Today however radar and AIS may allow the risk of collision to be reduced in fog, so perhaps clipping on can be considered a good idea if radar is available and being used.

However, I have witnessed a small freighter appear out the fog and disappear back into it, no more than 50 meters in front me. With a watch sleeping down below (in lifejackets) and a crew of 5 on deck, perhaps not being clipped was the best solution back then (no radar).

One just has to consider the risk at the time for the conditions one is sailing in.

 

[Seajet]

To me its not an easy call. I have sailed with an organisation that insisted on lifejackets in fog (pre useless unless worn days) and not clipping on due to the fact that collision situations are not readily noticeable in fog.

Today however radar and AIS may allow the risk of collision to be reduced in fog, so perhaps clipping on can be considered a good idea if radar is available and being used.

However, I have witnessed a small freighter appear out the fog and disappear back into it, no more than 50 meters in front me. With a watch sleeping down below (in lifejackets) and a crew of 5 on deck, perhaps not being clipped was the best solution back then (no radar).

One just has to consider the risk at the time for the conditions one is sailing in.

Good point Blowing Old Boots,

fog frightens me more than anything, had the odd fright.

I think I might avoid wearing an auto lifejacket in the cabin, and was told what seems a good tip, 'if in a crashing aircraft, sinking boat etc, expect it to go dark and put an arm out pointing to the nearest exit'.

I do think one should always carry a serrated knife and a torch too, but keep in mind not to wander ashore with the knife !

 

[Poignard]

The Old Guvnor and I usually clip on. If I forget but she soon reminds me, and when I am alone there is no-one to impress with my bravado so I clip on anyway!

It makes sense to do so because we are both elderly. She certainly has not the strength to lift me back on board and, if I am honest, I probably couldn't lift her on board; although I do have the know-how to enable me to quickly rig a tackle to make it possible (perhaps).

I think we both realise that going overboard probably means certain death and try to act accordingly. This is not being unduly melodramatic, the same would apply in a high-speed car crash without safety belts on.

In fog, which fortunately does not usually coincide with rough weather, we do not clip on; taking the view that if we are run-down we don't want to get dragged down by the sinking boat.

This is the way we think about it and I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to do.

 

[marklucas]

As has been said, you don't have to be going very fast to loose contact with a boat. A couple of real examples:

1. I once jumped off the bow of a 37' anchored yacht, I surfaced abeam the mainsheet and quickly passed the transom - the log was showing 2 knots of tide. Good thing I'd rigged a line with a bowline at the end beforehand.
2. Another time, I deliberately put a 34' yacht into neutral when motoring at 5 knots and started my stopwatch. Even though I knew it was going to happen, was only wearing swimming shorts and the water was warmish (Med in June) it took me 5 minutes to catch up with the yacht.

Do I wear a lifejacket / clip on in anything but the most benign conditions - yes.

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

I attained a RYA big weekend a few weekends ago where MOB methods and guidelines were discussed.

It was said that on high performance racing yachts it is ill-advised to clip on and much safer to be flushed off and "hopefully" plucked up safe and well.

I have thought about this for a week now and although I can see the RYA's logic I'm not sure if I totally agree.

Firstly what's classed as a "performance racing yacht"?
Volvo 70?
J/105 and above?
Open 40&60?
Some people may class a performance racing yacht as a benny first 31.7+ or a sigma or something similar.

Secondly, these performance racers will most liking have downwind sails up. Let's say these boats average 15 knots that is a lot of boat to slow down and sails to pack while the MOB is left behind.

My solution: I would have a line loosely coiled on the pushpit with a bowline loop. If a crew member ever went overboard while being clipped on I would clip his life line into the bowline making sure the other end was tied to the boat. This would drag him/her 10-20 metres behind the boat instead of getting smashed up against the hull.

What's the general opinion on this? And the RYA's view of advising not being clipped on?

When on delivery I would always insist that crew clip on at night when out of the cockpit - even in very benign conditions. If on solo watch they should be clipped on even when in the cockpit.

On a racing yacht you are likely to have several on watch at any one time. I would suggest that you clip on (and definitely with a short line). It would be better to be hung over the rail, possibly slightly injured but still attached for a brief period while the others stop the boat and haul you in than in the sea (possibly unconscious) whilst the yacht steams away from you at 15kts +.

Being 10 or 20 metres behind on a line at high speed would be very hard to survive. The crew would struggle to drag you that distance until the yacht had completely stopped and the amount of water you would probably swallow in the panic whilst the yacht slowed would more often than not be fatal.

Of course common sense applies - the crews of the J class yachts regularly fall in, but they tend to race in the Caribbean or Med and have safety boats to retrieve them. Clipping on could be more hazardous and would certainly effect the efficiency of the team...

In my opinion a good RYA instructor should not be treating issues like this as black and white, they should provide the students with the tools and awareness to make their own judgements in any given circumstance. If a decision can be soundly justified with high regard to the safety of both vessel and crew then the decision will generally be the right one.

Pete

 

[john_morris_uk]

I have been overboard from stationary yachts ( in a fair tide ) and high performance dinghies, I remember one such going past and my salvation was to grab a halliard which had trailed through a self-bailer.

I've been outside boats and aircraft, each time unable to raise an arm against the flow, so have an imagination about forces.

I'd rather be attached to the boat than off it, at very high speeds I'd suggest one's time is up anyway unless the helmsperson catches on & does something about it.

I suppose at over about 8 knots I'd quite fancy a designed break on the harness line, PLB and a Jonbuoy, though the point's moot if no-one is stopping or coming back.

I thnk at high speed, you would be very lucky not to be killed by the action of being pulled along by the boat. One of these new PLB's and/or one of the electronic displays that tells the people on board where the casualty is in the water is your best chance. IMHO...

 

[Seajet]

When on delivery I would always insist that crew clip on at night when out of the cockpit - even in very benign conditions. If on solo watch they should be clipped on even when in the cockpit.

On a racing yacht you are likely to have several on watch at any one time. I would suggest that you clip on (and definitely with a short line). It would be better to be hung over the rail, possibly slightly injured but still attached for a brief period while the others stop the boat and haul you in than in the sea (possibly unconscious) whilst the yacht steams away from you at 15kts +.

Being 10 or 20 metres behind on a line at high speed would be very hard to survive. The crew would struggle to drag you that distance until the yacht had completely stopped and the amount of water you would probably swallow in the panic whilst the yacht slowed would more often than not be fatal.

Of course common sense applies - the crews of the J class yachts regularly fall in, but they tend to race in the Caribbean or Med and have safety boats to retrieve them. Clipping on could be more hazardous and would certainly effect the efficiency of the team...

In my opinion a good RYA instructor should not be treating issues like this as black and white, they should provide the students with the tools and awareness to make their own judgements in any given circumstance. If a decision can be soundly justified with high regard to the safety of both vessel and crew then the decision will generally be the right one.

Pete

Pete & John,

if "the crews of J class boats regularly fall in" - no big surprise considering the cambered decks & no guardrails - someone has to ask if 21st century design should step in, lovely as these boats are.

One thought is the 'Latchway' system, whereby a person clipped can march from end to end, the thing just steps over fastenings; my 22' boat doesn't need this as I've found central harness points by the mast reach both ways, but I'd seriously think about it if having a larger boat again.

I'm not sure about towing a MOB on a bowline loop at 15 knots, but I do like the old idea of trailing a long thin line on single or short-handed boats; the original idea was to disable wind vanes to stall the boat, but it could easily be rigged over the pushpit to pull an electronic autopilot off the tiller pin with the same result.

MOB with a man & wife team is hugely & horribly different to having a big racing crew, when I did my ym offshore I was warned " don't tell the examiner you only sail with your girlfriend, or he'll make you do the MOB drill alone ": as that would be the conditions I'd be in, I thought 'fair enough' and did it.

It's easy to mistake the conditions of one's exam with a lot of strong guys around, compared to being alone in the middle of the oggin with SWMBO over the side and not knowing her PIN number, or even worse for several reasons vice versa.

 

[Roberto]

and have some imagination as to what being towed on a harness [...] on a high speed machine.

Genuine question: at what speed a human body might begin to plane, or at least be towed above the water surface ? what is the speed of those motorboats towing bodysurfing people ?

if, say, at 20-25kt people can waterski over their naked feet (higher? lower?), I reckon at 15-20kt one might skip over the water ?
Thas does not exclude the swallowing of half the atlantic ocean, of course

 

[john_morris_uk]

Genuine question: at what speed a human body might begin to plane, or at least be towed above the water surface ? what is the speed of those motorboats towing bodysurfing people ?

if, say, at 20-25kt people can waterski over their naked feet (higher? lower?), I reckon at 15-20kt one might skip over the water ?
Thas does not exclude the swallowing of half the atlantic ocean, of course

Sorry but I have no idea! Hopefully some ski boat owner can enlighten us. Of course the harness is attached to your middle so I am not sure you can achieve the right body attitude to plane anyway. A parachute as mentioned is to your shoulders, so it's easier to flip yourself over I imagine.