What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[Heckler]

The RYA statement misses the point completely.
If you want to go abroad, at some point you will leave international waters and enter the territorial waters of another country - where their rules apply.

What does the RYA want us to go? Sail around Britain or as far offshore as we want without actually putting a foot ashore anywhere else?

What happened to the rule that says another country respects the rullings of a home country? The road we are going down means that VAT dealings of the uk could be challenged by the belgies! Its all well and good airily dismissing something like this but unless we make a stand then we may as well roll over!
If Europhiles want to live by Euro "rules" then I suggest they go and live there!
Stu

 

[maby]

What happened to the rule that says another country respects the rullings of a home country? The road we are going down means that VAT dealings of the uk could be challenged by the belgies! Its all well and good airily dismissing something like this but unless we make a stand then we may as well roll over!
If Europhiles want to live by Euro "rules" then I suggest they go and live there!
Stu

Hmmm, that's a rule that doesn't exist within the EU!

I'm not a europhile by any stretch of the imagination, but this is a battle that we simply are not going to win and, while we attempt to fight it, we lose the ability to exercise our passtime/hobby/lifestyle to the full.

If you want to mount a campaign to leave the EU, you have my full support, but please lets admit that we have lost this battle, get the marinas to switch to white diesel and get on with sailing - this summer is probably already lost.

If HMRC get to grips with this and actually ban the sale of marked fuel to leisure sailors with a period of grace of perhaps a year, we may have enough ammunition to go back to the Commission and ask for leniancy till we've used up everything in our tanks and managed to get them flushed through - may still be able to safely visit the continent this year...

 

[Heckler]

Hmmm, that's a rule that doesn't exist within the EU!

I'm not a europhile by any stretch of the imagination, but this is a battle that we simply are not going to win and, while we attempt to fight it, we lose the ability to exercise our passtime/hobby/lifestyle to the full.

If you want to mount a campaign to leave the EU, you have my full support, but please lets admit that we have lost this battle, get the marinas to switch to white diesel and get on with sailing - this summer is probably already lost.

If HMRC get to grips with this and actually ban the sale of marked fuel to leisure sailors with a period of grace of perhaps a year, we may have enough ammunition to go back to the Commission and ask for leniancy till we've used up everything in our tanks and managed to get them flushed through - may still be able to safely visit the continent this year...

It is a rule, thats how we get away with flashing our brit registration papers to prove vat paid status.
Stu

 

[maby]

It is a rule, thats how we get away with flashing our brit registration papers to prove vat paid status.
Stu

No - our brit registration papers conform to EU directives and are, therefore, accepted as proof. EU membership constrains our government substantially. It sets minimum taxation levels that the government are at liberty to exceed. Subject to certain limitations, individual governments are free to impose more restrictive rules than the directives require, but they are not at liberty to be less restrictive than the directives. That has been at the root of all our current problems. The UK government has chosen to interpret the fuel marking directive in a way that is less restrictive than all the other member states believe is the case. HMRC have attempted to argue their interpretation before the Commission, but the announcement yesterday seems to indicate that they have come to the conclusion that they are going to lose - which always seemed to be the likely outcome. Their arguement rested on some sloppy wording in the directive and that would have been tightened up sooner or later.

I've always been opposed to EU membership - voted against it all those years ago when we were offered a referendum. I agree that we should not be subject to the rules that you are so outraged by, but we cannot ignore them without leaving the EU.

 

[GlennG]

I've always been opposed to EU membership - voted against it all those years ago when we were offered a referendum. I agree that we should not be subject to the rules that you are so outraged by, but we cannot ignore them without leaving the EU.

So let me understand this... If we left the EU, the Belgians would be fine with red diesel on our boats? That's fine as in OK, not fine as in penalty.

Somehow I think not.

 

[Marmalade]

And now, the end is near...

HMRC (our government) has folded like a cheap suit and caved in to the Eurocrats.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/drafts/pp-craft-tiin.pdf

I don't mind buying white diesel for the boat - but where the hell can I get some?

 

[maby]

So let me understand this... If we left the EU, the Belgians would be fine with red diesel on our boats? That's fine as in OK, not fine as in penalty.

Somehow I think not.

Probably not - as discussed elsewhere, there have been cases of American boats being fined for red diesel that was purchased outside the EU. I'm not linking the to issues - I would support leaving the EU as a seperate issue.

 

[Tranona]

No - our brit registration papers conform to EU directives and are, therefore, accepted as proof.

No they don't. Registration is nothing to do with EU, Directives or VAT.

If you want to claim that your VAT issues are the responsibility of HMRC you have to show that the last transaction that was a "chargeable event" took place in the UK. Registration is not evidence of a transaction, only that it is a British ship (and gives evidence of title if Part 1).

The Bill of Sale is the key document. If it is between two EU residents then it is not a chargeable event. If there are any questions about VAT then it is the responsibility of the authorities in the state where the sale took place to investigate. So, my boat was bought in Greece, from a Greek company, but is registered in the UK (and now physically in the UK). HRMC would have no interest in it once they saw the Greek BofS.

 

[maby]

No they don't. Registration is nothing to do with EU, Directives or VAT.

If you want to claim that your VAT issues are the responsibility of HMRC you have to show that the last transaction that was a "chargeable event" took place in the UK. Registration is not evidence of a transaction, only that it is a British ship (and gives evidence of title if Part 1).

The Bill of Sale is the key document. If it is between two EU residents then it is not a chargeable event. If there are any questions about VAT then it is the responsibility of the authorities in the state where the sale took place to investigate. So, my boat was bought in Greece, from a Greek company, but is registered in the UK (and now physically in the UK). HRMC would have no interest in it once they saw the Greek BofS.

perhaps I misunderstood the original message, but it still isn't a "... rule that says another country respects the rullings of a home country" - rightly or wrongly (wrongly), we pretty much gave up on that when we joined the EU. It is true that Belgium was jumping the gun by penalising us before the Commission had ruled on the case, but it always seemed that the commission would find against us, at which point the Belgian action would have become legal.

 

[st599]

Right, so where do the 'foriegn going' buy their white full taxed, given the anti-spillage rules in most marinas?

Do I detect another almighty cock up in the making, between HMRC's effectively falling in line with the EU Directive, and the reluctance to do anything by the BMIF and other marinas about 'unmarked' bunkerage since the issue was raised- about a decade now?

I've got a tankful of Red - where do I go to dump it? Swanage is quite close by.

 

[sailorman]

I've got a tankful of Red - where do I go to dump it? Swanage is quite close by.

Go just east around Old Harry into the bay seahorses love the stuff

 

[Heckler]

So let me understand this... If we left the EU, the Belgians would be fine with red diesel on our boats? That's fine as in OK, not fine as in penalty.

Somehow I think not.

The belgies are playing a game, they dont or didnt have a govt, their officials are running wild, they have a certain culture in their country that i came across, when i used to transit brussels. You will do as we say!
Natural justice says that if a boat pitches up from "foreign" with red diesel that was legal in their own country/international waters then all of a sudden iis illegal in belgium then that is not right. No different to an american boat pitching up with an american vhf, no ce marks etc, do they think it is right to fine them for that also. That is the point, international law/customs allow these things to happen. If belgium wants to act like a banana republic, then it is tiome we stood up to them!
Stu

 

[angelsson]

Is that the EU trough we read about? after 17 years of accounts not being ratified one would have thought it be much bigger.

 

[Heckler]

Is that the EU trough we read about? after 17 years of accounts not being ratified one would have thought it be much bigger.

What nationality is Guapa?

Stu

 

[maby]

...

Natural justice says that if a boat pitches up from "foreign" with red diesel that was legal in their own country/international waters then all of a sudden iis illegal in belgium then that is not right. No different to an american boat pitching up with an american vhf, no ce marks etc, do they think it is right to fine them for that also. That is the point, international law/customs allow these things to happen. If belgium wants to act like a banana republic, then it is tiome we stood up to them!
Stu

That is a significant oversimplification - there are plenty of places in the world where it is legal to buy firearms - if you are American you could wander into a gun shop and walk out with a high powered assault rifle on the strength of little more than your driving licence. Do you think they would be allowed to come across in a yacht, tie up in Southampton and walk ashore with that legally purchased gun slung over their shoulder? You could stop off at Heathrow Duty Free, but a bottle of whisky and hop onto a plane to Saudi - I'll watch with interest as you try to convince them to not whip you!

The same rules of self determination that many have invoked against the Belgians elsewhere in this thread apply - the theory is that EU membership standardises the rules to a large extent, at least between member states. We have a lot more freedom to impose whatever rules we like on people from outside the EU.

I'm not sure about the legal status of the hypothetical American VHF, but if it permits operation on frequencies that are not legal in this country, you could certainly be prosecuted for transmitting on them.

 

[Heckler]

That is a significant oversimplification - there are plenty of places in the world where it is legal to buy firearms - if you are American you could wander into a gun shop and walk out with a high powered assault rifle on the strength of little more than your driving licence. Do you think they would be allowed to come across in a yacht, tie up in Southampton and walk ashore with that legally purchased gun slung over their shoulder? You could stop off at Heathrow Duty Free, but a bottle of whisky and hop onto a plane to Saudi - I'll watch with interest as you try to convince them to not whip you!

The same rules of self determination that many have invoked against the Belgians elsewhere in this thread apply - the theory is that EU membership standardises the rules to a large extent, at least between member states. We have a lot more freedom to impose whatever rules we like on people from outside the EU.

I'm not sure about the legal status of the hypothetical American VHF, but if it permits operation on frequencies that are not legal in this country, you could certainly be prosecuted for transmitting on them.

Stop digging, if an american pitches up here with a gun, there are rules to deal with it, similarly with alcohol, it goes in bond. Not being simplistic just pragmatic. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Bottom line, the Belgies have taken it upon themselves to police the EU, we need to put them in their place!
Stu

 

[maby]

Stop digging, if an american pitches up here with a gun, there are rules to deal with it, similarly with alcohol, it goes in bond. Not being simplistic just pragmatic. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Bottom line, the Belgies have taken it upon themselves to police the EU, we need to put them in their place!
Stu

You come up with a plausible mechanism for putting them in their place and you will have my full support. If we cannot do it quickly, I prefer to see HMRC outlaw red diesel completely so that we get our freedom back... Pragmatic says that the saving from the 60/40 split is simply not worth the consequences

 

[Tidewaiter2]

There is always a 'Way', Grasshopper

I've got a tankful of Red - where do I go to dump it? Swanage is quite close by.

Why throw it away?
Now is the time to go West, Young Man, until the dust settles!
Fortunately, our early season plans were all Westward Ho!
We did want to go to our French friends club 50th celebrations in August, cos that's where my Dad landed on D+3. Maybe a 'modus vivendi' will have emerged by then, but I'm not holding my breath!

Or wait til we get near your berth, and can siphon it orf for you into our tanks.

Hope this hopeless bunch of UK* politicos and their 'advisers' get it sorted for 2013- We want to go North to redo my 1998 trip in comfort this time, and see the Grand neice & nNephew in Stockholm.

*They draw the pay & perks but cannot make a sensible, (un)common sense but hard decision to sort things for their Voters, just cover their a@$ses.
You wouldn't let them on your boat!

 

[Talulah]

Why throw it away?
Now is the time to go West, Young Man, until the dust settles!
Fortunately, our early season plans were all Westward Ho!

Another reminder needed: Olympics.

 

[neale]

Red denotes tax concession - which the 60/40 split is.

Not necessarily. If I declare 100% for propulsion I have no tax concession and yet my diesel is still red.