What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[maby]

So the RYA hit the wrong target?

Yes, they did. The government makes laws, and there is nothing in the UK law that is stopping us from complying with the EU rules. The trouble is that, in this country, we buy the bulk of our fuel from pumps that also supply commercial users who are entitled to use red diesel. Some of these are in marinas that house both commercial and leisure vessels and others are the pumps on the dockside that serve primarily commercial traffic. When the EU rules changed, many of these fuel outlets were unwilling to install extra tanks and pumps or switch their existing pumps to white diesel. The RYA pressured the government to cook up a quick fix and HMRC decided to turn a blind eye to our continuing use of red diesel provided we paid the full tax.

The RYA and HMRC have found a couple of lawyers who are willing to give an opinion that this quick fix is consistent with EU rules, but plenty of others think it is not - hence the current situation. Governments can change the UK law, but all they could do other than continue to pressure Brussels, is to fall in-line with the rest of the EU - which would just make life even more difficult for us. They cannot make it illegal for marinas and ports to sell red diesel since there are plenty of commercial users that are able to buy it legally. They could make it illegal for us to buy it - that would be really great, wouldn't it?

There is no law that bans fuel companies from delivering unmarked high-sulphur, FAME-free diesel to marinas or bans marinas from selling it to us - provided we pay the correct tax on it. What more can the government do?

 

[Twister_Ken]

What more can the government do?

Mandate no red diesel, and rebate the tax paid to commercial users.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Yes, they did. The government makes laws, and there is nothing in the UK law that is stopping us from complying with the EU rules. The trouble is that, in this country, we buy the bulk of our fuel from pumps that also supply commercial users who are entitled to use red diesel. Some of these are in marinas that house both commercial and leisure vessels and others are the pumps on the dockside that serve primarily commercial traffic. When the EU rules changed, many of these fuel outlets were unwilling to install extra tanks and pumps or switch their existing pumps to white diesel. The RYA pressured the government to cook up a quick fix and HMRC decided to turn a blind eye to our continuing use of red diesel provided we paid the full tax.

The RYA and HMRC have found a couple of lawyers who are willing to give an opinion that this quick fix is consistent with EU rules, but plenty of others think it is not - hence the current situation. Governments can change the UK law, but all they could do other than continue to pressure Brussels, is to fall in-line with the rest of the EU - which would just make life even more difficult for us. They cannot make it illegal for marinas and ports to sell red diesel since there are plenty of commercial users that are able to buy it legally. They could make it illegal for us to buy it - that would be really great, wouldn't it?

There is no law that bans fuel companies from delivering unmarked high-sulphur, FAME-free diesel to marinas or bans marinas from selling it to us - provided we pay the correct tax on it. What more can the government do?

The actual issue is that the UK government no longer conforms to an EU directive as it does not apply a marker to signify tax or duty-free fuel. Red diesel can be and is bought with 100% tax and duty paid on it so the red dye and chemical marker no longer constitute a marker that fulfils that purpose. This is nothing to do with boat-owners and is an issue between the UK and other EU governments.

The option of using white diesel was looked at at correctly rejected during the analysis prior to derogation ending. Why on earth would you pay for an complete extra set of pumps to be put in at some places, a complete fuel wash for the marina and the tanks with all it's associated pollution; all boats with red diesels in their tanks would have to pay for a fuel wash and flush too, and that's assuming you'd never be in a situation where you ended up with red in them again or you'd have to do the whole thing again. And what about the fuel that is used for heating - unless you have two tanks you'll have untaxed/duty-free fuel that is unmarked - that would quickly end up in cars I can guarantee. Unless you feel that the boat-owners should pay tax on fuel for heating?

There is only one problem here and that is a bunch of bureaucrats behaving like pillocks. Unfortunately the self-appointed spokesperson/body that should be bringing them to account either can't or won't and neither do they seem able to draw the UK government's attention to it.

In fact the Belgians are wrong because they are assuming that the marker in Red diesel signifies that it is tax/duty free, which it no longer does - either that or there's a Belgian law that does not follow the EU directive. There is no such thing as EU law - the Belgians need to take this up with the UK government, as has been said. If the individual boat owners have broken Belgian law then currently the Belgians are not following EU rules either.

 

[maby]

The actual issue is that the UK government no longer conforms to an EU directive as it does not apply a marker to signify tax or duty-free fuel. Red diesel can be and is bought with 100% tax and duty paid on it so the red dye and chemical marker no longer constitute a marker that fulfils that purpose. This is nothing to do with boat-owners and is an issue between the UK and other EU governments.

The option of using white diesel was looked at at correctly rejected during the analysis prior to derogation ending. Why on earth would you pay for an complete extra set of pumps to be put in at some places, a complete fuel wash for the marina and the tanks with all it's associated pollution; all boats with red diesels in their tanks would have to pay for a fuel wash and flush too, and that's assuming you'd never be in a situation where you ended up with red in them again or you'd have to do the whole thing again. And what about the fuel that is used for heating - unless you have two tanks you'll have untaxed/duty-free fuel that is unmarked - that would quickly end up in cars I can guarantee. Unless you feel that the boat-owners should pay tax on fuel for heating?

There is only one problem here and that is a bunch of bureaucrats behaving like pillocks. Unfortunately the self-appointed spokesperson/body that should be bringing them to account either can't or won't and neither do they seem able to draw the UK government's attention to it.

In fact the Belgians are wrong because they are assuming that the marker in Red diesel signifies that it is tax/duty free, which it no longer does - either that or there's a Belgian law that does not follow the EU directive. There is no such thing as EU law - the Belgians need to take this up with the UK government, as has been said. If the individual boat owners have broken Belgian law then currently the Belgians are not following EU rules either.

The rest of Europe is complying, so none of the above are insuperable. Personally, I would like to see us withdraw from the EU completely but, while we are still in, we have little room for manoeuver. I really do not care about paying tax on heating fuel - boat ownership is so expensive anyway that an extra fifty or sixty quid a year on my fuel bill really is not an issue. In comparison with the inconvenience of not being able to go wherever we like, the current "concessions" are a real pain in the neck.

It is a real problem for the non-marina-resident who needs to fill up at dockside pumps, but the majority of leisure marinas could change tomorrow with little loss of business. How do the French and Belgians got round it? Did they install extra tanks and pumps?

 

[Tidewaiter2]

The rest of Europe is complying, so none of the above are insuperable. Personally, I would like to see us withdraw from the EU completely but, while we are still in, we have little room for manoeuver. I really do not care about paying tax on heating fuel - boat ownership is so expensive anyway that an extra fifty or sixty quid a year on my fuel bill really is not an issue. In comparison with the inconvenience of not being able to go wherever we like, the current "concessions" are a real pain in the neck.

It is a real problem for the non-marina-resident who needs to fill up at dockside pumps, but the majority of leisure marinas could change tomorrow with little loss of business. How do the French and Belgians got round it? Did they install extra tanks and pumps?

eg; Fecamp= one hi speed tankomat for the fishers at one price, one ordinary tankomat for leisure users at another. job done.

 

[maby]

eg; Fecamp= one hi speed tankomat for the fishers at one price, one ordinary tankomat for leisure users at another. job done.

That's what I thought was the case - pain for the marinas, but they charge us enough!

 

[maxi77]

The answer here in Portugal and in Spain and France is that in marinas you get road deisel, often from a filling station that supplies road vehicles. You do not pay a marin a premium you pay the same as road vehicles. Red deisel is available in fishing harbours, and many commercial vessels seem to use white road fuel too.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

eg; Fecamp= one hi speed tankomat for the fishers at one price, one ordinary tankomat for leisure users at another. job done.

In other words they installed extra tanks and pumps. Who's going to pay for that in UK marinas? It's not a cheap or simple job.

 

[sailorman]

In other words they installed extra tanks and pumps. Who's going to pay for that in UK marinas? It's not a cheap or simple job.

one tank 2 dispensing pumps

 

[Tidewaiter2]

one tank 2 dispensing pumps

I reckon that too- both on the same pontoon about 4m apart!

 

[maby]

I reckon that too- both on the same pontoon about 4m apart!

In which case the commercial users must be burning white diesel?

 

[maby]

In other words they installed extra tanks and pumps. Who's going to pay for that in UK marinas? It's not a cheap or simple job.

The marinas - and they will pass it on to us in increased fees.

 

[Koeketiene]

In other words they installed extra tanks and pumps. Who's going to pay for that in UK marinas?

On the Orwell you can get marine diesel at Shotley, Suffolk Yacht Harbour, Woolverstone, Fox's and Ipswich.
That's five outlets stretched over about 8NM of river, servicing around 3000 yachts, and how many working boats? If it's more than a handful I would be very much surprised.
Four out of five outlets could switch to white without much trouble. And still everyone would be able to get what they require. There is no need for every outlet to offer both red and white.
Of course, they would have to get their tanks cleaned. And for some of the outlets I mentioned, that would not be a bad thing at all. Long overdue, in fact.

 

[Heckler]

If heading over use ordinary diesel, whats the problem?
If you don't you may get fined, thats the chance you take and its your choice.
Geez, get over it! their country their rules if you want to visit then play by their rules its not difficult.

Euro troll!
Stu

 

[Tidewaiter2]

In which case the commercial users must be burning white diesel?

Yerp, but I think the French fishers claim it back- we got trapped in Fecamp a couple of years back because they thought their Govt was not subsidising their ineffceint fleet of too small, too inshore boats enough- usual French direct action ensured- blockade the harbours.

 

[Heckler]

I sent an email to Nigel Farage, hoping he would do a rant on the bent barstewards that are trying to rule our lives!
See Below
Dear Mr Davies

The EU-Commission has received numerous representations about this, both from us and from boat-owners and their associations; but has not deigned to reply - not to us, at any rate. The only recourse I can recommend now, is a complaint to the "European Court of Justice", although the associations may already have embarked on such a complaint.

Members of the EU's pseudo-parliament wield no clout whatever - as the Commission well knows (but the public apparently doesn't) Some "Meppets" make a great show of producing declarations, which amount to precisely nothing. That leaves the ECJ, as I said.

Yours sincerely

Andrew S. Reed

Office of Nigel Farage, Brussels

www.ukip.org www.ukipmeps.org www.express.co.uk




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Davies family [mailto:davies@tynyffridd.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 16 February 2012 23:10
To: FARAGE Nigel
Subject: red diesel for boats


Nigel
can you kick ass with the belgiques please? They are fining british boats who have red diesel in their tanks. The UK gov came up with a compromise so that red could be continued to be used albeit with some tax paid. The belgiques have decided unilaterally, that it is wrong and are now fining people. Stupid people, they are cutting their noses off to spite their face. No brit boat will go there now in case they come up against a bolshie plonka! see the PBO boat forum here to get more info http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304240
Stu Davies
07967313792

 

[maxi77]

I sent an email to Nigel Farage, hoping he would do a rant on the bent barstewards that are trying to rule our lives!
See Below
Dear Mr Davies

The EU-Commission has received numerous representations about this, both from us and from boat-owners and their associations; but has not deigned to reply - not to us, at any rate. The only recourse I can recommend now, is a complaint to the "European Court of Justice", although the associations may already have embarked on such a complaint.

Members of the EU's pseudo-parliament wield no clout whatever - as the Commission well knows (but the public apparently doesn't) Some "Meppets" make a great show of producing declarations, which amount to precisely nothing. That leaves the ECJ, as I said.

Yours sincerely

Andrew S. Reed

Office of Nigel Farage, Brussels

www.ukip.org www.ukipmeps.org www.express.co.uk




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: The Davies family [mailto:davies@tynyffridd.freeserve.co.uk]
Sent: 16 February 2012 23:10
To: FARAGE Nigel
Subject: red diesel for boats


Nigel
can you kick ass with the belgiques please? They are fining british boats who have red diesel in their tanks. The UK gov came up with a compromise so that red could be continued to be used albeit with some tax paid. The belgiques have decided unilaterally, that it is wrong and are now fining people. Stupid people, they are cutting their noses off to spite their face. No brit boat will go there now in case they come up against a bolshie plonka! see the PBO boat forum here to get more info http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304240
Stu Davies
07967313792

Seems our UKIP MEPs are too busy spending their excellent expenses to do anything. I always felt a vote for them was more than wasted.

 

[Twister_Ken]

It comes as no surprise that Farage is as useless as the rest of them. Or possibly even more useless.

 

[Heckler]

It comes as no surprise that Farage is as useless as the rest of them. Or possibly even more useless.

Useless as you think he is, at least he called that non elected plonka what he is (the so called president of the EU?) Superb performance, he said what needed to be said!
Stu

 

[maxi77]

Useless as you think he is, at least he called that non elected plonka what he is (the so called president of the EU?) Superb performance, he said what needed to be said!
Stu

That speach showed him up for the crass bufoon he is. He ponces around claiming to be defending some mythical 'indepndance' and at the same time screwing the expenses system for all he can, a nice earner but does more harm to the UK than any other polititian, even Blair or Brown.