What's the RYA's response to British boats being BANNED from Belgium?

[grumpy_o_g]

On the Orwell you can get marine diesel at Shotley, Suffolk Yacht Harbour, Woolverstone, Fox's and Ipswich.
That's five outlets stretched over about 8NM of river, servicing around 3000 yachts, and how many working boats? If it's more than a handful I would be very much surprised.
Four out of five outlets could switch to white without much trouble. And still everyone would be able to get what they require. There is no need for every outlet to offer both red and white.
Of course, they would have to get their tanks cleaned. And for some of the outlets I mentioned, that would not be a bad thing at all. Long overdue, in fact.

This misses the point - you can't just switch to white unless you are willing to pay tax on all your diesel. That may be fine if you have 20hp Beta or something that uses 20 gallon a year but it's not exactly perfect for a large motorboat. It's a 60/40 split of taxed/untaxed - that's why the UK has said carry on using Red Diesel - some of it is untaxed.

Even ignoring that, apart from the stupidity of a few law-makers/enforcers, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. Everything is working just fine in each country - all it's needs is a little common sense and intellignece by the Belgian government/courts.

 

[sailorman]

This misses the point - you can't just switch to white unless you are willing to pay tax on all your diesel. That may be fine if you have 20hp Beta or something that uses 20 gallon a year but it's not exactly perfect for a large motorboat. It's a 60/40 split of taxed/untaxed - that's why the UK has said carry on using Red Diesel - some of it is untaxed.

Even ignoring that, apart from the stupidity of a few law-makers/enforcers, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. Everything is working just fine in each country - all it's needs is a little common sense and intellignece by the Belgian government/courts.

you might have misunderstood stood Guapa.
he stated he bunkers in Belgium, the fuel there is probably cheaper than here & if one had a € bank A/c even more beneficial

 

[grumpy_o_g]

you might have misunderstood stood Guapa.
he stated he bunkers in Belgium, the fuel there is probably cheaper than here & if one had a € bank A/c even more beneficial

If I did then my sincere apologies - I thought he was suggesting the outlets on the Orwell switch to white.

 

[sailorman]

If I did then my sincere apologies - I thought he was suggesting the outlets on the Orwell switch to white.

he did but he has stated he uses white from Niewpoort or Blankenburge

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304885
post 4

 

[maby]

This misses the point - you can't just switch to white unless you are willing to pay tax on all your diesel. That may be fine if you have 20hp Beta or something that uses 20 gallon a year but it's not exactly perfect for a large motorboat. It's a 60/40 split of taxed/untaxed - that's why the UK has said carry on using Red Diesel - some of it is untaxed.

Even ignoring that, apart from the stupidity of a few law-makers/enforcers, there is absolutely no reason to change anything. Everything is working just fine in each country - all it's needs is a little common sense and intellignece by the Belgian government/courts.

You may be treating it that way, but you are breaking the law even by UK standards and giving ammunition to the Belgians. You get the 60/40 split on the assumption that you are going to use 40% of it for heating - which, presumably, you are not doing, otherwise the size of your engine would not enter into the consideration. The tank that we purchased in January was taxed at 100% heating - the marina lock was closed for maintenance and we burned all the fuel before we next started the engine.

Sooner or later you are going to end up paying full tax on your fuel - when that day comes, we can start sailing to Belgium again.

 

[Erik C]

That speach showed him up for the crass bufoon he is. He ponces around claiming to be defending some mythical 'indepndance' and at the same time screwing the expenses system for all he can, a nice earner but does more harm to the UK than any other polititian, even Blair or Brown.

Glad that us "continentals" are not the only ones to see him like that.

 

[Heckler]

Glad that us "continentals" are not the only ones to see him like that.

Read the email and understand how the system works, like all UN/EU/ and the ilk, the non elected plonkas do their thing, feck with our lives and pretend the elected plonkas have control, then ignore them when they complain! There in lies madness!

Stu

 

[Erik C]

Read the email and understand how the system works, like all UN/EU/ and the ilk, the non elected plonkas do their thing, feck with our lives and pretend the elected plonkas have control, then ignore them when they complain! There in lies madness!

Stu

I do not disagree with all of the content, just with the way he delivered his speech at the time.

 

[maxi77]

Read the email and understand how the system works, like all UN/EU/ and the ilk, the non elected plonkas do their thing, feck with our lives and pretend the elected plonkas have control, then ignore them when they complain! There in lies madness!

Stu

That reality in no way makes Farage and his fellow expense leaches any brighter or less crass. He is a complete boor, and I would be very happy if he had his citizenship rescinded for bringing thr UK into disrespect

 

[Heckler]

That reality in no way makes Farage and his fellow expense leaches any brighter or less crass. He is a complete boor, and I would be very happy if he had his citizenship rescinded for bringing thr UK into disrespect

He may be a boor in your opinion, but sometimes that is what it takes to get through the thick skin of those people!
They are just as boorish doing what they are doing to us!
stu

 

[timbartlett]

... that non elected plonka what he is (the so called president of the EU?)....

Euro arguments might make more sense if some of those doing the arguing were at least vaguely aware of the workings of the EU.
The Council is made up of elected representatives of each government.
The Parliament is made up of elected representatives of the people of each country.
The Commission is made up of unelected officials, but has no power to make laws.
And no EU law applies to individual citizens until it has been incorporated into the laws of individual states.
It is loosely analogous to the UK's two houses of Parliament and civil service... only far more democratic!

 

[grumpy_o_g]

You may be treating it that way, but you are breaking the law even by UK standards and giving ammunition to the Belgians. You get the 60/40 split on the assumption that you are going to use 40% of it for heating - which, presumably, you are not doing, otherwise the size of your engine would not enter into the consideration. The tank that we purchased in January was taxed at 100% heating - the marina lock was closed for maintenance and we burned all the fuel before we next started the engine.

Sooner or later you are going to end up paying full tax on your fuel - when that day comes, we can start sailing to Belgium again.

UK law is NOT being broken unless you deliberately make a false declaration. A larger yacht also uses more power so I don't follow your argument at all. More to the point the UK tax authorities have decreed that a 60/40 split is reasonable, given the impossibility of predicting the use and the Belgians are not disputing that. Consider this - if you had filled your tank with red diesel, claiming it reasonably as say a 10/90 split (as you have a generator, heating, etc. but nearly always sail) and then sailed across to Belgium then you would have been somehow breaking Belgian tax laws despite not owing any tax in Belgium nor having broken any UK tax laws. That is a bizarre situation that could only be dreamed up by a bureaucrat.

 

[maby]

UK law is NOT being broken unless you deliberately make a false declaration. A larger yacht also uses more power so I don't follow your argument at all. More to the point the UK tax authorities have decreed that a 60/40 split is reasonable, given the impossibility of predicting the use and the Belgians are not disputing that. Consider this - if you had filled your tank with red diesel, claiming it reasonably as say a 10/90 split (as you have a generator, heating, etc. but nearly always sail) and then sailed across to Belgium then you would have been somehow breaking Belgian tax laws despite not owing any tax in Belgium nor having broken any UK tax laws. That is a bizarre situation that could only be dreamed up by a bureaucrat.

If you have a generator, and possibly diesel fueled cooking and water heating, you may have some justification, but the vast majority of boat owners simply milk the system. My wife and I spend a large part of the time on the boat and we burn a lot of fuel in heating over the winter. But many of our friends spend very little time on the boat other than sailing and their split in fuel usage is far less than 60/40. How many, in the summer, pay 100% tax? In our previous boat we had gas-fired heating and the marina knew it, but they still offered us the 60/40 split.

Now, I'm certainly not in favour of giving HMRC money if I can avoid it, but it is exactly this abuse of the red diesel concession that we have that gives the EU ammunition to ban it. I don't know how long HMRC can hold out against being forced to withdraw it, but until they do, we are going to find ourselves increasingly limited in our ability to sail to the continent. Sailing is an expensive passtime and paying a few quid extra in tax on the fuel really isn't a justification for all the difficulty it is causing us. We wanted to go to Belgium and Holland this summer, but have now changed our plans.

 

[sailorman]

If you have a generator, and possibly diesel fueled cooking and water heating, you may have some justification, but the vast majority of boat owners simply milk the system. My wife and I spend a large part of the time on the boat and we burn a lot of fuel in heating over the winter. But many of our friends spend very little time on the boat other than sailing and their split in fuel usage is far less than 60/40. How many, in the summer, pay 100% tax? In our previous boat we had gas-fired heating and the marina knew it, but they still offered us the 60/40 split.

Now, I'm certainly not in favour of giving HMRC money if I can avoid it, but it is exactly this abuse of the red diesel concession that we have that gives the EU ammunition to ban it. I don't know how long HMRC can hold out against being forced to withdraw it, but until they do, we are going to find ourselves increasingly limited in our ability to sail to the continent. Sailing is an expensive passtime and paying a few quid extra in tax on the fuel really isn't a justification for all the difficulty it is causing us. We wanted to go to Belgium and Holland this summer, but have now changed our plans.

There is no "Milking the system" on the 60/40 split.
as has been stated many many times that is the agreed no question asked HMRC position.
one is perfectly at liberty to have what ever split one requests, BUT be prepared to justify it at a later date.

 

[maby]

There is no "Milking the system" on the 60/40 split.
as has been stated many many times that is the agreed no question asked HMRC position.
one is perfectly at liberty to have what ever split one requests, BUT be prepared to justify it at a later date.

Of course you are, but how many people are so overtaken by honesty that they start claiming a 100% tax split come the end of April? Once you've sailed away from the fuel pontoon, you're safe - provided you don't go to Belgium, at least. HMRC does not insist that we hold onto fuel receipts, and the pump operator does not make a note of the name of the boat and tax split claimed - so there is no way to check up on us.

 

[sailorman]

Of course you are, but how many people are so overtaken by honesty that they start claiming a 100% tax split come the end of April? Once you've sailed away from the fuel pontoon, you're safe - provided you don't go to Belgium, at least. HMRC does not insist that we hold onto fuel receipts, and the pump operator does not make a note of the name of the boat and tax split claimed - so there is no way to check up on us.

marinas do note boat name,date,split.
mave you not bought fuel in the past few years

 

[maby]

marinas do note boat name,date,split.
mave you not bought fuel in the past few years

Well, let me rephrase that - I've never been asked for any identification - if they record it, they must be inferring it. I have certainly been offered the 60/40 split by pump operators who knew full-well that there was nothing on the boat capable of burning the fuel other than the engine.

 

[PaulGooch]

Well, let me rephrase that - I've never been asked for any identification - if they record it, they must be inferring it. I have certainly been offered the 60/40 split by pump operators who knew full-well that there was nothing on the boat capable of burning the fuel other than the engine.

Dunno where you buy fuel then. Anytime we buy fuel from anywhere other than our home marina we have to fill out a declaration. We don't do it each time we refuel at our home marina, the declaration that we completed when we first booked in covers future purchases.

 

[Tidewaiter2]

Dunno where you buy fuel then. Anytime we buy fuel from anywhere other than our home marina we have to fill out a declaration. We don't do it each time we refuel at our home marina, the declaration that we completed when we first booked in covers future purchases.

+1, and a fresh declaration everytime from our fuel pontoon
HMRC has people who sail too, and they know what a British 'summer' has been like these last 10 years or so

 

[NorthUp]

........... But many of our friends spend very little time on the boat other than sailing and their split in fuel usage is far less than 60/40. How many, in the summer, pay 100% tax? ..................

A yacht diesel engine is at best not even 50% efficient, they all generate heat. You may choose to pump most of that heat over the side, but the engine block is heating up the engine bay, and the interior of the boat..