What's the point of hybrid power in a planing boat?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Reading the article in this month's MBY about Sunseeker installing a hybrid power system in one of their 70 footers, I kept asking myself why? Somebody flame me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, all the electric motor/gennie thing does is allow the batteries to drive the boat at displacement speed and power the 220V systems at anchor for a while. So, you'll be able to potter in and out of your marina under battery power and maybe not use your gennie at anchor for a period. Big deal. For 100% of the time when the boat is planing, it's being powered by the usual monster diesel lumps. The total fuel saving must be tiny and the total CO2 savings must be negative because of the carbon cost of refining the lithium for the batteries, replacing/disposing of the batteries periodically and manufacturing the electric motor/gennie, not to mention the extra weight added to the boat which will increase the fuel consumption at speed.
The old cynic in me can't help thinking that this is a blatant marketing exercise designed to appeal to right-on eco celebs and other bleeding heart rich people who can now sleep easy at night knowing they've bought a 'green' power boat. Yeah, right

 

[PCUK]

You've hit the nail on the head regarding all hybrid transport. The cost of producing and disposing of all the special equipment!!!!
Yet more government lies about climate change and the need to tax us more and more!

 

[jfm]

Reading the article in this month's MBY about Sunseeker installing a hybrid power system in one of their 70 footers, I kept asking myself why? Somebody flame me if I'm wrong but as I understand it, all the electric motor/gennie thing does is allow the batteries to drive the boat at displacement speed and power the 220V systems at anchor for a while. So, you'll be able to potter in and out of your marina under battery power and maybe not use your gennie at anchor for a period. Big deal. For 100% of the time when the boat is planing, it's being powered by the usual monster diesel lumps. The total fuel saving must be tiny and the total CO2 savings must be negative because of the carbon cost of refining the lithium for the batteries, replacing/disposing of the batteries periodically and manufacturing the electric motor/gennie, not to mention the extra weight added to the boat which will increase the fuel consumption at speed.
The old cynic in me can't help thinking that this is a blatant marketing exercise designed to appeal to right-on eco celebs and other bleeding heart rich people who can now sleep easy at night knowing they've bought a 'green' power boat. Yeah, right

Mike, you're 100% right. Those were all exactly my thoughts when I read the article. Actually there is one benefit you don't mention, which is that youy can run the boat slowly not just on batteries but on gensets, and that is nice to have but still doesn't offset the carbon footprint overheads of the whole system

This hybrid stuff is only any use if it collects wasted energy (KERS in cars, for example) or collects solar/wind/tidal current energy (which a big mobo could have a good crack at)

 

[ash12]

Hybrid really is a flash in the pan. Roll on hydrogen power

 

[jfm]

Also I was suprised s/seeker picked the hattan 70 for this, as it's an about-to-be-phased-out model. In line with s/s's "every 3 years" policy it will soon be replaced by hattan 73.

 

[Latestarter1]

Hybrid really is a flash in the pan. Roll on hydrogen power

I am over 60 so I will never see it in my lifetime.

As to the hybrid SS, when cost of new battery banks is revealed it will cause eye watering depreciation.

What is a few lines of publicity worth in a decent journal?

 

[jfm]

As to the hybrid SS, when cost of new battery banks is revealed it will cause eye watering depreciation.

Yup. To give an example, a spare battery pack for one of these Sea Bobs is
€6k - €7k. The entire toy is €12-15k incl the battery. All inc VAT. Similary big prices for Segway. So a set of monster lithiums for a hattan70 could be 30 grand kinda price...

 

[Elessar]

Yup. To give an example, a spare battery pack for one of these Sea Bobs is
€6k - €7k. The entire toy is €12-15k incl the battery. All inc VAT. Similary big prices for Segway. So a set of monster lithiums for a hattan70 could be 30 grand kinda price...

imagine. You could get a better dash for that sort of money

 

[ulyden]

Have been calculating on hybrid solutions. For high load applications like fast ferries and cargo ships there are no point. But in some applications it could be useful. Car ferries going short distance and suply vessels. Point is: a engine running at 10 to 30% load have a poor efficiency. By charging a batteri used fore backup or ekstra manouver power is good. In some cases you can save a engine due to redundancy.

The way world is moving in large engines the engine is getting more tuned for steady state operation. Built in capasity for transient behavior is taken away. This is costing efficiency. In near future more efficient diesel engines will show up. To overcome manovre emissions and give the engine more torque such solutions can be necessary. Problem is number of cycles a batteri can take. 3000 cycles and then change batteri back.

Engines can run on Hydrogen but compressed air is easier. You need power to produce them both

 

[Latestarter1]

Have been calculating on hybrid solutions. For high load applications like fast ferries and cargo ships there are no point. But in some applications it could be useful. Car ferries going short distance and suply vessels. Point is: a engine running at 10 to 30% load have a poor efficiency. By charging a batteri used fore backup or ekstra manouver power is good. In some cases you can save a engine due to redundancy.

The way world is moving in large engines the engine is getting more tuned for steady state operation. Built in capasity for transient behavior is taken away. This is costing efficiency. In near future more efficient diesel engines will show up. To overcome manovre emissions and give the engine more torque such solutions can be necessary. Problem is number of cycles a batteri can take. 3000 cycles and then change batteri back.

Engines can run on Hydrogen but compressed air is easier. You need power to produce them both

Ulyden, as usual your hypothesis is spot on!

As for hydrogen as a fuel it is carbon intensive to produce, therefore on its own pointless....Maybe in thirty years time we will be able to produce hydrogen directly as a power source from H2O.

 

[westernman]

Hydrogen is potentially interesting since it can be readily produced from excess electricity from wind farms and solar panels when the demand for electricity is not there.

Fuel cells are potentially efficient. Also hydrogen can be readily burnt in a pretty standard internal combustion engine as BMW have demonstrated with a small fleet of 7 series cars in Munich.

Hybrids are a waste of time - the batteries are too much of a headache and waste of energy.

But there is a good argument for diesel generators/electric motors as in the Intercity 125 trains as the engines can then be run close to peak efficiency over a wide load/speed range (train/propeller etc).

 

[jfm]

Have been calculating on hybrid solutions. For high load applications like fast ferries and cargo ships there are no point. But in some applications it could be useful. Car ferries going short distance and suply vessels. Point is: a engine running at 10 to 30% load have a poor efficiency. By charging a batteri used fore backup or ekstra manouver power is good. In some cases you can save a engine due to redundancy.

Yup. The Lurssen AIR (ex ICE) is a good example. It has 8 identical diesel engines driving alternators. Propshafts driven by electric motors (which of course isn't new; see s/s Canberra, Limitless, and lots of azipod driven ships like I think QM2). At anchor and slow running you run one 'gine. To go a bit faster you start the next one. And so on. The 8th is rarely running so it can have its oil changed or whatever. I also noticed Roman Abramovich's brand new Lloyd Werft expedition yacht, LUNA, had 8 exhaust stacks when I saw it anchored this summer so I think that has a similar system

 

[Warpa]

You've hit the nail on the head regarding all hybrid transport. The cost of producing and disposing of all the special equipment!!!!
Yet more government lies about climate change and the need to tax us more and more!

I totally agree, i am a right cynic and conspiracy theorist in a lot of things, global warming imo is hogwash, a scam to make money. Its just another market gimic for the green bregade I drive a 4x4 pickup, i bet the tree huggers frown at me yet the engine is a lean burn thing and cost £200 in RFL per year.

Sea Sick Steve hit the nail right on the head. Starts at about 3 mins in;

 

[ash12]

I may well see hydrogen as I am only 17. Only thing is with running a normal engine on hydrogen and having a tank of hydrogen means it could all go a bit hindenburgish.

 

[westernman]

I may well see hydrogen as I am only 17. Only thing is with running a normal engine on hydrogen and having a tank of hydrogen means it could all go a bit hindenburgish.

According to BMW it is a lot less dangerous than petrol.
Also the tank they were using looked pretty solid. I don't think that is going to split in the event of an accident.....

 

[Hurricane]

There was an interesting point in the article that I picked up.
They were saying that you could "pootle" along on one engine whilst the undriven prop was turned electrically by electrical energy driven off the running engine.

We;ve had loads of "single engine" threads on this forum - does this add a new dimension to the waste of energy in the undriven prop?

I wonder.

This year we finally got into the Med way of cruising - far less blatting around - far more "chilled out" (pootling we call it) - there's definately a point to running a big FB boat slowly - as long as there is enough power to "put your foot down" when you want.

 

[tico]

One other thing.... with Lithium batts, don't the have some nasty side effects if you get the discharge pattern wrong (think lappys in flames) so I would be wary of a battery pack that size.

 

[Questor]

According to BMW it is a lot less dangerous than petrol.
Also the tank they were using looked pretty solid. I don't think that is going to split in the event of an accident.....

I've seen both the tank & the engine at Munich. The tank is quite a serious bit of kit. Unfortunately I don't have a photo to hand. I'm surprised that BMW consider hydrogen to be safer than petrol, given that they say the 760h shouldn't be garaged (in case of leakage)

Suspect it will be a future form of power though, and so much cleaner than this current hybrid stuff

 

[mjf]

Actually Jfm the QE2 had this system of multiple engines driving in her case shafts.

I was on the bridge once when picking up anchor and proceeding to sea and it was interesting (15 years ago I think) to watch the control systems light up as pitch was engaged and more power was needed as greater speed called for.

You could see the load on each engine as each in turn kicked in to provide the HP.

I think in S/S case it would be interesting to do the harbour steaming electrically with a aux genset running and I guess when pushing to go over the hump you have both ME's and the electric motor drive aka Lexus 450 which incidentally seems only to manage 32mpg in mixed driving from a claimed 44mpg. I tried one of these a couple of weeks back and liked the elecky bit but hated the engine / combo when pushing on.
Lexus claim very little warrantly issues on the elect side.

 

[westernman]

I think on some ships the diesel engine is governed to run at a constant speed. Then you change the propeller pitch to go slower/faster/backwards etc.