MapisM
Well-Known Member
Are you sure to be looking at the same area I was referring to?
This border doesn't look covered with sticking salt to me.
I'm not positive that it's pitted, though. I did ask for a better pic...
Whats a fair price for replacing the PSS shaft seal wear parts on my boat?
This border doesn't look covered with sticking salt to me.
I'm not positive that it's pitted, though. I did ask for a better pic...
vas
Well-Known Member
failed to notice that P!
you have a point, but in that case and seeing that the other side of the ss rotor thing is clean, it would be a matter of turning it over, cleaning the carbon mating surface, checking that all's well and pretensioning the bellows again
you have a point, but in that case and seeing that the other side of the ss rotor thing is clean, it would be a matter of turning it over, cleaning the carbon mating surface, checking that all's well and pretensioning the bellows again
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I don't know PSS seals well enough, doesn't the rotor have a specific orientation for some reason?
If not, your suggestion makes good sense of course.
But if that's indeed pitting, it remains something that shouldn't have happened.
Worth checking the shaft earthing, methink...
If not, your suggestion makes good sense of course.
But if that's indeed pitting, it remains something that shouldn't have happened.
Worth checking the shaft earthing, methink...
Nito
Well-Known Member
I have a pss dripping at the moment. Bought the boat and the bilges were perfectly dry. After a 7.5hr trip, a constant drip every couple of seconds into the bilge. I noticed this half way through our return voyage when I did a precautionary check in the engine bay and found the water in the bilge. We stopped to bail out, about a litre from memory. Got back to our Marina. In the next 24 hours it was about 2.5 litres to bail out.
I followed the PSS videos, used the rag cleaning. This didn't have much affect. Then did the same with the 600 grit paper. Did this on two occasions, after the second attempt, the dripping slowed to about once every 8 seconds. Came back the next day and it was no longer dripping. with only a minute amount in the bilge which could be absorbed by a single piece of kitchen roll.
Went out for an hour journey, came back and the dripping is back. About once every 3 seconds. That was yesterday so it will be interesting to see what is in the bilge at the weekend. I hope it has stopped!
From my observations, it's clear that underway there is some leakage as there is evidence of spray getting over the gearbox etc. It seems to drip at a slow rate. I can't see that water would come roaring in except in the event of a failure of the bellow, or the metal disc slipping (the pro versions have locking collars) and most installations I have seen including mine have fitted as a precautionary measure, a jubilee clip to prevent a failed disc from sliding back thus removing the preload from the bellow. The OP's features one also.
When you separate the carbon stator from the SS disc, the rate of water that enters is quite alarming! I don't know how to upload vids yet but here is a still of the water coming in which doesn't capture the full force of it!
There are stories of boats unused for months, where the stator and disc bond together. The friction means that when the prop turns, if they are stuck together, the bellow can shear/split as it will try and turn with the disc. That's a scary thought and having seen how quickly water enters I'm fairly sure that could lead to a catastrophic event. PSS says to seperate the stator from the SS disc on a sitting boat before starting up, I can totally see why, though I suspect it would take a matter of months for this to be an issue and I expect the bellows would also need to be past their best for this to occur.
If ours continues to drip, we will need to address it at the next haul out. I would then replace these PSS seals with the Pro version, which uses silicone bellows (10yr vs 6yr service life) and also come with the locking collar. I would also replace the cutlass bearings at the same time.
Mine is a Sunseeker Portofino 400, I know there are cutlass bearings in the P brackets, but I don't know if there is any kind of seal/cutlass in the stern tube/shaft log, does anyone know if there normally would be? The shafts are on V drives which have a coupling at the front which releases the shafts.
If you were near the boat I would say you would be safe to leave until more convenient. If not, then you are reliant on your bilge pump to evacuate the water which would accumulate. I can't see it would be a lot worse than 2.5L a day but that soon adds up if it's weeks before you get to your boat!!
Good luck with getting it all sorted, it's not a nice feeling to know that there is any water getting in from outside.
I followed the PSS videos, used the rag cleaning. This didn't have much affect. Then did the same with the 600 grit paper. Did this on two occasions, after the second attempt, the dripping slowed to about once every 8 seconds. Came back the next day and it was no longer dripping. with only a minute amount in the bilge which could be absorbed by a single piece of kitchen roll.
Went out for an hour journey, came back and the dripping is back. About once every 3 seconds. That was yesterday so it will be interesting to see what is in the bilge at the weekend. I hope it has stopped!
From my observations, it's clear that underway there is some leakage as there is evidence of spray getting over the gearbox etc. It seems to drip at a slow rate. I can't see that water would come roaring in except in the event of a failure of the bellow, or the metal disc slipping (the pro versions have locking collars) and most installations I have seen including mine have fitted as a precautionary measure, a jubilee clip to prevent a failed disc from sliding back thus removing the preload from the bellow. The OP's features one also.
When you separate the carbon stator from the SS disc, the rate of water that enters is quite alarming! I don't know how to upload vids yet but here is a still of the water coming in which doesn't capture the full force of it!
There are stories of boats unused for months, where the stator and disc bond together. The friction means that when the prop turns, if they are stuck together, the bellow can shear/split as it will try and turn with the disc. That's a scary thought and having seen how quickly water enters I'm fairly sure that could lead to a catastrophic event. PSS says to seperate the stator from the SS disc on a sitting boat before starting up, I can totally see why, though I suspect it would take a matter of months for this to be an issue and I expect the bellows would also need to be past their best for this to occur.
If ours continues to drip, we will need to address it at the next haul out. I would then replace these PSS seals with the Pro version, which uses silicone bellows (10yr vs 6yr service life) and also come with the locking collar. I would also replace the cutlass bearings at the same time.
Mine is a Sunseeker Portofino 400, I know there are cutlass bearings in the P brackets, but I don't know if there is any kind of seal/cutlass in the stern tube/shaft log, does anyone know if there normally would be? The shafts are on V drives which have a coupling at the front which releases the shafts.
If you were near the boat I would say you would be safe to leave until more convenient. If not, then you are reliant on your bilge pump to evacuate the water which would accumulate. I can't see it would be a lot worse than 2.5L a day but that soon adds up if it's weeks before you get to your boat!!
Good luck with getting it all sorted, it's not a nice feeling to know that there is any water getting in from outside.
Last edited:
vas
Well-Known Member
no orientation P, either way is OK, rotor is symmetrical no marks anywhere.
if it is indeed pitted, they should as you say check bonding
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Thats a v good point and an awful lot of boats are going to be at risk considering that many have remained unused during lockdowns
vas
Well-Known Member
Nito, out of curiosity, did you pull the bellows from the ss ring using your bare hands?
The way I see it, sticking a flat head screwdriver in between is a definite NO NO.
Judging the trouble I had preloading them to 25mm as per the instructions I really cannot see how you can pull the carbon bit back without any tools.
so, I'm either way too weak and need to go to the gym, or ss ring has slipped back and prestress load is minimal (hence the leak!)
cheers
V.
John100156
Well-Known Member
Be useful to know the source of the 'stories' I have not heard of them but not suggesting for one moment they do not exist, just would like to know the circumstances.
My old F43 had been left for many months unused when I bought her and straight off on a 500nm trip. I never had any issues with the PSS seals, had one of the lip seals go on my P45, hence replacing them. I would like to know, I would have considered PSS if ever I needed to replace later as I do like the principle.
My old F43 had been left for many months unused when I bought her and straight off on a 500nm trip. I never had any issues with the PSS seals, had one of the lip seals go on my P45, hence replacing them. I would like to know, I would have considered PSS if ever I needed to replace later as I do like the principle.
Nito
Well-Known Member
Using my super strength alone! I wouldn't dream of prising something against the sealing surfaces. Pulling it back slightly for water to escape wasn't overly difficult, I gripped the stator ring (being careful not to accidentally exert any pressure on the water feed spigot) , but it wasn't easy to insert anything as small as a folded sheet of sandpaper, let alone sawing back and forth with the paper for which you have to be careful of ripping the paper. It's a messy job because a fair amount of water will come in during that operation (maybe 2.5 litres) in a matter of a minute or so. The water flow slows right down once the paper is inserted but invariably you have to release the stator from the rotor again to reposition the paper and go all the way around the shaft. According to PSS, dripping occurs if there is dirt on the mating surfaces, apparently just allowing some water to gush in can clear any offending muck that may have entered and is also what you should do after a long period standing. Note, mine is the Nitrile bellow, if you have the Pro (Silicone) version, the bellows will be much stiffer.
Maybe my pre-tension is less than yours (hence the leak), I don't think through slippage of the rotor as there is a jubilee securing ring behind it. I did measure the bellow section and it was 1.5mm less on this side than the other (131mm vs 132.5mm) on a 44.64mm shaft (1"3/4 ?). I realise from the PSS site that the measurement should be taken from the end of the rotor to the end of the bellow so I'll need to remeasure and see how in or out of spec it is (should be 203-209mm end to end on this size tube and shaft for Nitrile bellow).
Cheers
Nito
Nito
Well-Known Member
Hi John,
Came across it through researching the PSS leaking. Post #45. You'll find it's a balanced post. It was in the earlier days of PSS and some things have changed since (material of the bellow, metal spigot and manufacturers advice). Possibly as a response to this incident or others similar. I've no reason to fear the PSS seals, as ever if they are installed correctly, maintained as per manufacturers recommendations then they should be fine. That said I'm certain a failure could/would likely be catastrophic which is why I will upgrade to the Silicone and reinforced 'Pro' version which has a 10yr vs 6 yr life, with the extra cost offset against the longer lifespan and a bit of extra insurance/comfort for the beefier product. I'd prefer the locking collar to a jubilee clip also, which I suspect can easily mark the shaft.
Dripless shaft seal owners beware. - Page 3 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Cheers
Nito
vas
Well-Known Member
you're joking, come and pull mine (45mm shafts) no fking way unless you do one finger pushups for fun (saw a scary clip on twitter last week I think)!
I'd hazzard a guess that ss rings and clips have slipped.
For good measure, I've marked with a permanent marker the point where the ring should be according to specs. Will be a good reference point down the line. If the blue line disappears, means the thing slipped.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
That is indeed VERY scary.
I'm sure others on here will disagree with me but now that you have said that, if I were you, I would change them for Tides seals.
You would have an issue though - there isn't much space to get any seal in there.
Especially if you wanted a spare Tides style replacement seal on the shaft.
I think I would explore the option though.
Just the thought of getting on board one day, starting up and shredding the bellows, scares the living daylights out of me.
Who checks their glands after starting and moving off!!
Forty_Two
Well-Known Member
Me Me Me
I have a pair of IR cameras on them to a screen by the helm, it's very reassuring ?
Mind you i have old tech packing glands.
I have a pair of IR cameras on them to a screen by the helm, it's very reassuring ?
Mind you i have old tech packing glands.
superchip
Well-Known Member
when i arrived in Opesa from Majorca as soon as we come off the plane after a very short time the bilge pumps started working so as soon as i was tied up i went in the engine rom and you could hear gallons of water entering the boat.
the shaft seal was completely destroyed and the feed pipes both ripped off,
i undone the clips on the bellows ,slid it up the shaft and forced rags in-between the shaft and stern tube which eventually stopped the flow.
the whole seal,housing bellows and clips lasted about eight hours before completely melting though lack of coolant water.
the feed pipe from the engine was partially blocked causing this to happen again so although t.c did the repair what they didn't do was find out why it failed . i contacted tidal seals and thats who told me it needed eleven litres a minute to keep it cool.
i passed this information on to TC they then checked it and replaced the restricted feed pipe
the shaft seal was completely destroyed and the feed pipes both ripped off,
i undone the clips on the bellows ,slid it up the shaft and forced rags in-between the shaft and stern tube which eventually stopped the flow.
the whole seal,housing bellows and clips lasted about eight hours before completely melting though lack of coolant water.
the feed pipe from the engine was partially blocked causing this to happen again so although t.c did the repair what they didn't do was find out why it failed . i contacted tidal seals and thats who told me it needed eleven litres a minute to keep it cool.
i passed this information on to TC they then checked it and replaced the restricted feed pipe
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Ohhh
I was going to get TC to replace my starboard one - the one that had a failed/replaced lipseal.
TC replaced the port seal when they moved the engine for me to get access to the front.
Incidentally, we replaced it because the blue bellows were showing signs of wear.
So, I was going to replace the starboard one but now you have got me thinking - if it isn't broke - maybe I shouldn't fix it - I still have a spare lipseal on that shaft (Princess install two spares on each shaft).
John100156
Well-Known Member
Just looking at Nito's image back in #69 - just looks like the two mating faces are not sitting square, slightly skew, I am sure mine sat square....
Interesting report though, food for thought...
Interesting report though, food for thought...
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I used to periodically visit in the winter months , run up the systems inc engines * and ease the stern lines and click it up and back on the berth to do this spin the shaft seals .
This year the guardian has just moved it round to the ship yard and back , nothing adverse reported .
So iirc last used early Oct then a lockdown prevent travel .Started last week .So best part of 7 months parked up .
Although the exhaust guy started the engines I do no think he clicked it in gear ?
* Moot point I did it to spread the oil film out , warm to 65 degrees ( no load ) the oil to disperse Med winter condensation , stop sludge formation oil settling , and wet and turn any seals . AND spin the shafts to decrease any accretions settling .
How ever there is a school of thought, not mine that it’s a waste of time if cannot go out and get the motors under proper load .
Sure 60-65 jacket temp degrees is not as high as 84 , with a corresponding drop in oil temps .
I can put in N and gently bring them up to 2000 rpm at the dock .
What put me on to this was once I removed a valve cover to reccy a valve adjustment job , take a peek etc .Unbelievably the inside was literary bone dry .Iirc the boat had been stood quite a while .Made me wonder !
Cant see a huge pissing leak while parked on the birth during winter hibernation .A drip easily delt with bilge pumps maybe?
This sticking and ripping the bellows , well mines just done 7 months .
Do I check after leaving the berth in the season nope .Perhaps after a long spell unused I do indeed leave the ER hatch open start up and pop down to check for weeps , not just water but oil , g box hydraulics etc .
Got bilge alarms and LEDs if the pumps run. Yes plenty of rags to stuff it so to speak .
This year the guardian has just moved it round to the ship yard and back , nothing adverse reported .
So iirc last used early Oct then a lockdown prevent travel .Started last week .So best part of 7 months parked up .
Although the exhaust guy started the engines I do no think he clicked it in gear ?
* Moot point I did it to spread the oil film out , warm to 65 degrees ( no load ) the oil to disperse Med winter condensation , stop sludge formation oil settling , and wet and turn any seals . AND spin the shafts to decrease any accretions settling .
How ever there is a school of thought, not mine that it’s a waste of time if cannot go out and get the motors under proper load .
Sure 60-65 jacket temp degrees is not as high as 84 , with a corresponding drop in oil temps .
I can put in N and gently bring them up to 2000 rpm at the dock .
What put me on to this was once I removed a valve cover to reccy a valve adjustment job , take a peek etc .Unbelievably the inside was literary bone dry .Iirc the boat had been stood quite a while .Made me wonder !
Cant see a huge pissing leak while parked on the birth during winter hibernation .A drip easily delt with bilge pumps maybe?
This sticking and ripping the bellows , well mines just done 7 months .
Do I check after leaving the berth in the season nope .Perhaps after a long spell unused I do indeed leave the ER hatch open start up and pop down to check for weeps , not just water but oil , g box hydraulics etc .
Got bilge alarms and LEDs if the pumps run. Yes plenty of rags to stuff it so to speak .
John100156
Well-Known Member
I suppose you could always use a simple in-line flow meter, or temp sensor, but we have enough systems on board as it is.
superchip
Well-Known Member
i think through my own experiece its very important to check the water flow feed pipes ,if mine had been checked the second failure would have been avoided .
John100156
Well-Known Member
Like Porto, I am also in the camp of running up engines and spinning shafts at all visits, I have considered the glazed bores argument and the like, but just like to get things moving and oiled.....
