What is the true state of the U.K Boat industry ?

[BruceK]

True, this is indeed a possible "free" source of energy.
Not applicable in the Med (aside from a few exceptions of marinas along rivers), but I suppose that might be worth considering in many places in the UK.

My river / estuary berth experiences a 4knt current between tides and causes my props to windmill quite significantly. It's fanciful but if it could be harnessed to generate battery power that could propel a boat along that would be a massive bonus and definitely pique my attention.

 

[Portofino]

@ Nigel. Dragging no cain is better than one even with a wheel .
Nearest thing to energy eco / green management is the 3 rd Vs in the link I posted in #37

“ shaft generator mode “

Shafts allready turning - could be D speed or not .Either way there’s some recovery in a way .No ought for nowt as it will take a bit out of the prop torque , but tiny @ D speed .
As said saves firing up the geny (s) and sometimes saves low load on them -Soz guys back the low EGTs on the geny (s) .
The next step is finding suitable batts to recharge ,but as allready said 5 knots for 5 miles is no good .
100 miles in a 3/4 ton car is marketable bat only —— arguably only just if you look at EV sales ?

http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/images/Hybrid.gif

 

[Portofino]

I am totally with you on this point. Retirement is 9 years away. I will be looking for a used boat, displacement, long range, about 35ft, with enough solar on the cabin roof to keep a fridge running and enough solar hotwater for us to shower. No genset - if for what ever reason I run out of domestic battery charge, I'll fire up and run the main engine.

It’s not very efficient “ firing up / main engine “ kinda runs against the low carbon footprint ethos ?
We run a small 3.5 Kv MASE its 400 cc diesel gobbles .8 to 1 L / hr .
Reasonably sound proofed- well quieter than the mains and runs the Aircon + charger to top up batts .
This means we can do extended stays on the hook .
Managing your power with a small geny works for us .
Cruise is 180L/ h planing or 30-40 @ D —- so tossing in another 1 L/h for AC geny seems insignificant in the overall scheme of carbon foot print .
No geny means you will prob end up cooking on other carbon fuel - say gas and end up on top of the safety hassle running out in remote anchorage s .
Not sure if you can cook with solar ? Normally / traditonally

Our hot water is interesting - no califyier , it’s either shore / geny 220 V immersion like a house Or a 24 V inverter to the immersion which we run when runing as the alternators top up the Dom bat bank .

So solar panels not really needed either for hot water or bat management.

You will need to work out how to power a water maker too for long stays at anchor .That probably won,t be solar either .

Ideally a yacht with sails + a small geny otherwise any mobo @ D speed and a geny .

 

[MapisM]

Either way there’s some recovery in a way

Porto, we can argue till the hell freezes over about how critical it is to avoid running diesel engines at low load/low EGT, etc.
Fwiw, the Caterpillars in my previous boat spent 20+ years running in those conditions 99.9% of the time, sipping less than 10lph each, and they didn't suffer at all. They must have been unaware of all the theories - ignorance is bliss, I reckon...
But I digress.
The point is, I can't for the life of me see any energy RECOVERY also in that "shaft generator mode" condition.
For any given rpm, if the main engines must spin, on top of the props, also an electric motor that works as a generator, their load is higher, and so is their fuel burn - it's that simple.
If the guys at Columbus Yacht would have found a way to get round this basic principle, they'd deserve a Nobel prize...

 

[Portofino]

I,ve got what feels like a nit right in the centre of my back ( where I can,t reach ) do you mind picking that one - more useful please

Here’s the rest you conveniently missed off In the quote above .

“No ought for nowt as it will take a bit out of the prop torque , but tiny @ D speed .”

So thx for agreeing with me :encouragement:

The EGT ref was there’s regarding geny low running 1000,s of hours issues a well known problem ,aside in a shooting in the foot kinda way adding a bit of load via a PTO to run the “ generator in shaft mode “ is moving in the right direction of travel re increasing the load esp @ D speeds . although it’s not specified in the Columbus Blurb .
The one in our marina leaves and enters under E motors the mains are off . Silently .

A car uses its kinetic energy when slowing down , hills approaching stops etc to regerate , boats don,t slow down generally long enough.

As said AGAIN in the mobo boat context —-“ there’s ought for nowt “

But there’s as been said allways sails and solar or both that those that wish .

 

[Portofino]

The point is, I can't for the life of me see any energy RECOVERY also in that "shaft generator mode" condition.
For any given rpm, if the main engines must spin, on top of the props, also an electric motor that works as a generator, their load is higher, and so is their fuel burn - it's that simple.
If the guys at Columbus Yacht would have found a way to get round this basic principle, they'd deserve a Nobel prize...

If the total fuel burn of the mains + adding the resistance of the “ shaft generator “ is less than mains + geny( s) for the same kv then they are quids in , in more ways than one
€€€ fuel bill 0.01 % less - but less nether the less.
Geny service bills
Green credentials - bragging rights with other owners .

Assuming a slight loss of speed say D dropping from 13.7 to 13 . 4 knots - which in a big ( by 40/70 M standards ) sea will be immeasurable or insignificant in a long cruise .

To one in our marina is a 170 ftr one off by Columbus

I understand they took two with this hybrid tech to the Monaco SY show and came home empty handed - sold em .
Meanwhile others had to take away there exhibits after the show .
So it’s selling scepticism aside as is .

 

[Portofino]

It’s this tech (2014 ) that they are putting in the rest of the range
http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/files/numerisation0033.pdf

Our marina has a 57 M ( 187 ftr ) with this 2015 build .
Capt , crew ,owner , guests ,and other marina users very impressed with it btw .—- seems a nod to green issues .

 

[MapisM]

If the total fuel burn of the mains + adding the resistance of the “ shaft generator “ is less than mains + geny( s) for the same kv then they are quids in

Possibly, but only because for any given power requirement, 2 engines are bound to be more efficient than 3 (or more), not because there's any energy recovery to speak of.
That's all I meant, nothing else.

 

[jfm]

Porto, we can argue till the hell freezes over about how critical it is to avoid running diesel engines at low load/low EGT, etc.
Fwiw, the Caterpillars in my previous boat spent 20+ years running in those conditions 99.9% of the time, sipping less than 10lph each, and they didn't suffer at all. They must have been unaware of all the theories - ignorance is bliss, I reckon...
But I digress.
The point is, I can't for the life of me see any energy RECOVERY also in that "shaft generator mode" condition.
For any given rpm, if the main engines must spin, on top of the props, also an electric motor that works as a generator, their load is higher, and so is their fuel burn - it's that simple.
If the guys at Columbus Yacht would have found a way to get round this basic principle, they'd deserve a Nobel prize...

+1 to all that including the slow running.

Cars offer loads of KERS opportunities especially in cities. Unfortunately boats are the complete opposite.

 

[Bouba]

Whilst I also don’t believe you can get more out than you put in. There might be a theoretical case to say you are expending energy to move a vast quantity of water (past your boat) and therefore is it not possible to recoup some energy from that same water?

 

[maby]

Whilst I also don’t believe you can get more out than you put in. There might be a theoretical case to say you are expending energy to move a vast quantity of water (past your boat) and therefore is it not possible to recoup some energy from that same water?

Not without increasing the drag of the boat - which will result in you needing to expend even more energy to get it moving. It is quite common for ocean-going sailing boats to tow a generator to recharge their batteries, but they are being driven by the wind and the effect of the generator is simply to slow the boat down a bit. Mobos are being driven by burning diesel or petrol - if you want to recharge your batteries, it is more efficient to couple the generator directly to the engine, not try to drive it from the passage through the water.

 

[[2068]]

Porto, we can argue till the hell freezes over about how critical it is to avoid running diesel engines at low load/low EGT, etc.
Fwiw, the Caterpillars in my previous boat spent 20+ years running in those conditions 99.9% of the time, sipping less than 10lph each, and they didn't suffer at all. They must have been unaware of all the theories - ignorance is bliss, I reckon...
But I digress.
The point is, I can't for the life of me see any energy RECOVERY also in that "shaft generator mode" condition.
For any given rpm, if the main engines must spin, on top of the props, also an electric motor that works as a generator, their load is higher, and so is their fuel burn - it's that simple.
If the guys at Columbus Yacht would have found a way to get round this basic principle, they'd deserve a Nobel prize...

The saving comes because you can power down the generators, and syphon some power to keep all your nieces’ hairdryers running from the electric motors instead:


Sergio Cutolo of Hydro Tec, who designed the Columbus 40S Hybrid’s naval architecture, exterior styling and lines, describes the propulsion system succinctly. ‘We have two diesel engines and we also have two electric engines,’ he says.

‘We have three modes of operation: diesel mode is absolutely conventional, you can go at 22 knots maximum speed, or a consumption of 150 litres at 14 knots. The second mode is diesel-electric: you switch off the main engines, put the three generators in parallel (the diesel engines are also generators) and feed the two electric motors that drive the boat at eight knots. With 40 decibels in the cabins, you can make navigation during the night.

‘The third mode we call shaft generator – we drive the main engines, these drive the electric motors (which are also generators) so you switch off the diesel generators and make the power for the boat through the main engines. So you save fuel. It’s a very flexible system.’

.

 

[MapisM]

The saving comes because you can power down the generators, and syphon some power to keep all your nieces’ hairdryers running from the electric motors instead
...
‘The third mode we call shaft generator – we drive the main engines, these drive the electric motors (which are also generators) so you switch off the diesel generators and make the power for the boat through the main engines. So you save fuel. It’s a very flexible system.’

Nope FP, the idea that there's some kind of spare power, which is generated regardless of whether it's necessary or not, and is laying around waiting to be syphoned, is inherently flawed, I'm afraid.
Cutolo might well be right when he says that their "shaft generator" mode "saves fuel", but this statement is subtle, because it compares one way of producing electricity (through the generators attached to the mains) with another (through generators driven by one or more separate diesel engines).
Which is pretty much stating the obvious, because of course you can save a bit of fuel by running a lower number of engines for any given power requirement. A single main engine spinning both one huge prop and a generator would be even better.

This is what I was trying to say already in my post #68, but I'll try to expand a bit.
Big mobos - all of them - need AC onboard 24/7.
In a traditional configuration, this means that you cruise with the two mains spinning the props, plus one (or more, depending on how high the AC demand is) diesel genset.
Now, let's assume that at an economic D speed, this traditional vessel only needs 10% of her total installed power, with main engines spinning at low rpm and an even lower load. On top of that, there's the fuel burned by at least one genset.
A 40m boat might need about 400kW overall in a "normal" cruising configuration (i.e. without turning on onboard a/c, Jacuzzis, BBQ, and above all resisting the temptation to fire the jfm-style u/w lights, otherwise the kW requirements would skyrocket.... ).
Let's also say that 400 is split between 350 for propulsion provided by the mains and 50 domestic provided by one genset.
So far so good, but what we have here is a smallish diesel genset running in its optimal envelope, plus two huge propulsion diesel purring well below their potential.
Mind, none of these engines is producing any power that remains lost somewhere: 400kW is what the boat needs, and that's what the engines deliver - if you forgive me for leaving aside the fact that to produce 50kW of electricity a genset actually needs a 60kW or whatever diesel engine.
The overall fuel burn will be 45lph for each main engine, plus 10 for the genset, give or take.
Let's assume that the total is exactly 100lph, in this configuration.

Now, of course the main engines have the potential, at the same rpm, to bear a much higher load, albeit burning more fuel of course - there's no free lunch!
This is where the "shaft generator" mode kicks in, because by reversing the electric propulsion engines attached to the main gearboxes, you can use them to produce the domestic 50kW, avoiding to turn on any genset.
But this does NOT mean that you are just getting rid of the 10lph previously burned by the genset.
What this means is that the mains, while still running at the same rpm (hence at the same boat speed), are now more loaded, because the equivalent of their "prop demand" is now up from 350 to 400kW (again, without considering generators losses - which I have a funny feeling that might be higher in this case, compared to a dedicated genset).
Now, in a theoretical world without losses of any kind, this would imply that the main engines that previously burned 45lph are now up to 50, which would bring us back to 100lph overall.
But as I said, I accept that by avoiding to spin the pistons and move the valves of a third diesel engine you can gain a bit of efficiency, in principle.
Mind, it ain't a RECOVERY of something which was previously hidden somewhere, just a more efficient way to achieve the same result - though I guess you might call this difference academic.

What remains to be understood (I don't have an answer, and I'd love to hear from Cutolo about this) is how much of those 10lph previously burned by the genset are now burned by the mains, in this shaft generator mode?
Anyway, even assuming that the fuel burn increase from the mains is now only half of that (which might well be on the optimistic side), we are talking of an efficiency improvement of 5% - ONLY in this mode, because it's safe to assume that in the other two modes, if there's any efficiency difference, it's very likely to be for the worse.

'Fiuaskme, that's nowhere near enough to get out to bed and go to the drawing board to design such a sophisticated and expensive setup.
Otoh, I can see the appeal of running the boats with the big mains turned off, because surely the gensets are much more silent and vibration free.
Besides, the system flexibility/redundancy is indeed remarkable, when you think of all the possible combinations.
I just don't buy any kind of marketing BS about fuel saving, when it's crystal clear that the TCO of these boats is higher than any "traditional" vessel of comparable size - and I don't see how this could change in the near future.

Btw, my car is a hybrid SUV, and I very much like it, but I'm not pretending to be "greener" than swmbo's Smart Fortwo because I've got a "Hybrid" badge and she doesn't...

 

[paul salliss]

So Ladies and Gentlemen. Where does all this leave us re the state of the U.K Boat industry. Is it on the up ....Don't think so, or on the down.... Don't think so either, is it fair to say it is in a period of transition due NOT ONLY to the price of fuel, but in my opinion due to people having less time..........but still wanting to get their fix

 

[Portofino]

Where’s the word “ spare “ in FP,s quote ?
See my post # 66 ,
One assumed that say cruising along a steady eco ish D Speed say 14 knots and the Capt pressed the “shaft gen “ button then after its engaged the speed will drop .Not by too much to make any diff say to 13. [ insert your No ] knots .
Throttles not pushed up .
So it’s feels like the 220 V house to run the Aircon / wateemaker etc is free or recovered.
Not obviously strictly regeneration in the automotive kinetic energy sense - no body is saying it is .

It’s tge best and nearest green thing you can do with a mobo .
Here’s a great summation I think
https://www.yachtsinternational.com/technology/balance-of-power-columbus-40m-sport-hybrid

I mean back to the Op .
Of the 3 - which ever does a scaled down or with SS / Priny 40 M ish size FIRST will steal a march on the other two .
What’s this space .

Think about it , I could be cruising @ 30 ‘knots ( insert your own speed here ) - engage my miniaturised “ shaft geny “
Use the seemingly free 220v @ say now 27/28 knots - big deal - to make sure the beer fridges are extra cool
Run the Aircon pre arrival at anchor to chill the boat ,or have the extra versatility .

There’s lots of other discretionary spend like Fins , gyros , one can bolt on ,but so far nobody’s offering a “ shaft geny “ motor for d speed .
Infact it would be nice to have the option turn off the mains and go slow D with geny / electric motors .
Financially the fit out cost of a extra toy in a boat never makes sense - buts that’s a given and we are not debating that .

Just would be nice by a mainstream builder to offer this kind of tech in the options list ,

You see take the SS 155 , currently the range topper , sure it can plane ? Well go fast and burn a heck of a lot of fuel - to iirc low twenties say 24 knots but most owners use them @ 9-14 where the hull has been optimised for long range cruising.
So this tech should dove tail right in —— today’s buyers will be looking it’s all perception.

 

[Portofino]

So Ladies and Gentlemen. Where does all this leave us re the state of the U.K Boat industry. Is it on the up ....Don't think so, or on the down.... Don't think so either, is it fair to say it is in a period of transition due NOT ONLY to the price of fuel, but in my opinion due to people having less time..........but still wanting to get their fix

Healthy order books and plenty of interesting stuff in the pipeline for our big 3 .Exporting to HNW and UHNW .

There’s a gap with generation rent and victims of the lost decade entering boating ,and golf and many other discretionary spend hobbies -( and high street spend like Italian food outlets ) so no market in sub 25/30 ftr starter boats for U.K. builders to make money against the many cheaper mainly American imports - cheap for now

 

[MapisM]

many other discretionary spend hobbies -( and high street spend like Italian food outlets)

Oi, that's blasphemous!
How can you dare comparing IT food with discretionary hobbies, when it's actually what inspired Abraham Maslow when he defined the very first level of his well known hierarchy of needs?

 

[MapisM]

Where’s the word “ spare “ in FP,s quote ?
See my post # 66 ,
One assumed that say cruising along a steady eco ish D Speed say 14 knots and the Capt pressed the “shaft gen “ button then after its engaged the speed will drop .Not by too much to make any diff say to 13. [ insert your No ] knots .
Throttles not pushed up.

Well, forget the "spare" if you wish, but that's how his "syphon some power" concept came across - to me, anyway.
Regardless, if that's all you have to criticize in my train of thought, I can live with it. :encouragement:

Btw, what you are now saying is not how the throttles work on diesel engines (within limits, obviously).
When the captain press the magic button without touching the throttles, rpm/speed do not drop one bit, in theory.
You should only see the difference in the MTU (in this specific case) displays, which would show a higher load and instantaneous fuel burn.

 

[Portofino]

Oi, that's blasphemous!
How can you dare comparing IT food with discretionary hobbies, when it's actually what inspired Abraham Maslow when he defined the very first level of his well known hierarchy of needs?

Sorry you probably don,t know there’s been a succession of high street food outlets going bust in the U.K. .
Mainly IT .
Linked to less discretionary spend .Folks are staying home no money apparently.
Golf clubs are going bust as well .
Well you have probably heard of “ bank of mum and dad “ ——-buying cars / property etc for kids ,helping with deposits etc but buying a boat for them I suspect has not quite made it into the psyche of parents—- yet !
So I can’t see where the new entrants in to the U.K. boat market are coming from at starter level .Hence our big 3 are staying away from this segment .Leaving to imports

 

[MapisM]

So Ladies and Gentlemen. Where does all this leave us re the state of the U.K Boat industry. Is it on the up ....Don't think so, or on the down.... Don't think so either, is it fair to say it is in a period of transition due NOT ONLY to the price of fuel, but in my opinion due to people having less time..........but still wanting to get their fix

Sorry for having contributed to the drift, but actually the true state of the boat industry (not just in the UK, mind) has always been a topic which you could debate forever without reaching any conclusion, in my experience.
At any point in time, you might find someone convinced that its state is X (let's say either X1=good or X2=bad).
But you will ALWAYS find someone else arguing that X1 is just a prelude to either Y1 or Z1, whereas Y1 is even better and Z1 is catastrophic.
Similarly, if the first chap said X2, the second would say that it's soon going to be either Y2 or Z2, if you see what I mean...