alant
Well-Known Member
Sail you mean?
What is the true state of the U.K Boat industry ?
- Thread starter paul salliss
- Start date
Sail you mean?
baylabayla3288
Well-Known Member
Sanlorenzo has done quite a nice job in developing a hybrid powered model.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTylkVqn_vM&sns=em
This will probably not make breakeven financially (for the owner) but this is more about comfort, smoke less where it matters and so on...
Actually hybrid propulsion could probably work quite well already in a 40 + feet boat. The electric power could be used for displacement speeds and the big diesels for planning speeds and supercharging the batteries. With this approach the big diesels would be loaded at their sweet spot. As we all know large diesels does not like prolonged low load operation and the fuel consumption is not optimal. So already with a relatively small battery pack this kind of plug in hybrid startegy, common in the auto industry, could work. Also the torque characteristics for relatively small electric motors can easily match that of a large diesel running at low or idle speeds.
As the SL example shows these systems will initially make sense in high end crafts. Next maybe motor cats could start using electric power. Perhaps with one large diesel generator + a deasent batterypack and 2 electric motors.
Here is another interesting startup focusing on electric propulsion for boats
https://oceanvolt.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTylkVqn_vM&sns=em
This will probably not make breakeven financially (for the owner) but this is more about comfort, smoke less where it matters and so on...
Actually hybrid propulsion could probably work quite well already in a 40 + feet boat. The electric power could be used for displacement speeds and the big diesels for planning speeds and supercharging the batteries. With this approach the big diesels would be loaded at their sweet spot. As we all know large diesels does not like prolonged low load operation and the fuel consumption is not optimal. So already with a relatively small battery pack this kind of plug in hybrid startegy, common in the auto industry, could work. Also the torque characteristics for relatively small electric motors can easily match that of a large diesel running at low or idle speeds.
As the SL example shows these systems will initially make sense in high end crafts. Next maybe motor cats could start using electric power. Perhaps with one large diesel generator + a deasent batterypack and 2 electric motors.
Here is another interesting startup focusing on electric propulsion for boats
https://oceanvolt.com/
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
It's been around for thousands of years and is called sailing. Perhaps we will all end up there in decades to come. That would not me for me as don't have the time but other than time .....why not
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
Yes I saw that and it does seem to be on the up at that level. I suppose it's sell a bit of crude oil, then order a Novichak attack and sail off to Cannes for a weekend
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
I assume you pay double for berthing a Cat??
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
jrudge
Well-Known Member
I wonder if the torque of an electric motor could be used to get the boat on the plane and smaller diesels used to keep it there? Marine diesels of course tend to work quite hard in the cruise, but getting it out of the water is usually (well for ham fisted me) accomplished by using full power and then coming down to 1800 rpm or so.
I dont cruise at full power ( no one probably does) but the marketing challenge might be with this idea that the top speed will reduce as the surplus power to get it out of the hole can no longer be used to push it to xx top speed, but smaller diesels = less weight = less fuel and so on.
Put in pod drives ( not favour of the month I know but they are efficient and use smaller engines anyway) and you might start to get somewhere.
Maybe you could also loose the generator on the basis the large battery bank is going to do the work - -but that might be a bit optimistic in the med! Anyway if anyone has the size electric bill I do in mallorca the thought of charging up huge batteries might make a trip to the diesel pump look like a bargain!
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
If only that were going to be true! I agree that there is likely to be a glut of oil if/when electric/plug in hybrid cars start to dominate the market which will result in lower oil prices but that is only one determinant of the price at the pumps, the other determinants being fuel duty and VAT. When electric cars take over the market, govts will be under enormous pressure to maintain fuel duty revenue somehow. Of course in the long run they will have to find ways of extracting that revenue from electric cars or whatever technology replaces the internal combustion engine, but in the short and medium team, the obvious thing to do will be to ramp up fuel duty and there will be overwhelming public support for that from the public who have been forced to abandon their petrol and diesel cars for electric ones. I think that the idea we will be running our gas guzzling motor boats on dirt cheap diesel in 20yrs time is nice but pie in the sky
superheat6k
Well-Known Member
There is a distinct lack of used boats available in the modern (< 10 years) sports / small fly cruisers 30 - 40' to feed the newer entries who perhaps want to trade up from either smaller 25-30' Merry Fishers, Antares, etc. or those expecting to buy as their first boat at around 30 - 35'.
This follows from the virtual total demise in building of these boats from the likes of Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker and even more recently Sealine, although the latter are back, but not sure what the numbers are actually being made. I expect that production runs of 20 or 30 per annum are a thing of the past. The French almost have free rein here with their Prestige / Beneteaus, although the Germans seem less interested in the Bavarias, and I suspect the Americans are fed up with the bureaucracy of the RCD plus a strong $ does not help them sell there previously cheaper mass production boats here Bayliner, Monterey, Four Winns, etc.
Not many first timers will buy > 40' and for equally many < 30' is simply too small. A well renowned broker's local manager told me she simply can't find enough second hand boats for this market area and as a result residuals for those who do have such boats is good and sales will move through quickly.
Still plenty of > 15 year old boats, but then these also come with massive variables in terms of buy-ability / defect lists (both declared and undeclared).
This follows from the virtual total demise in building of these boats from the likes of Fairline, Princess, Sunseeker and even more recently Sealine, although the latter are back, but not sure what the numbers are actually being made. I expect that production runs of 20 or 30 per annum are a thing of the past. The French almost have free rein here with their Prestige / Beneteaus, although the Germans seem less interested in the Bavarias, and I suspect the Americans are fed up with the bureaucracy of the RCD plus a strong $ does not help them sell there previously cheaper mass production boats here Bayliner, Monterey, Four Winns, etc.
Not many first timers will buy > 40' and for equally many < 30' is simply too small. A well renowned broker's local manager told me she simply can't find enough second hand boats for this market area and as a result residuals for those who do have such boats is good and sales will move through quickly.
Still plenty of > 15 year old boats, but then these also come with massive variables in terms of buy-ability / defect lists (both declared and undeclared).
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
1.5 x in Portugal but there are some marinas giving better rates that that.
Cost is of course offset by reduced fuel and service expense - 700nm motoring has cost around €600 thus far....
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
And just for context , Lagoon are shipping one catamaran per day, every 365 of them. There’s an underlying reason for this that the gin palace manufactures either don’t get or cant react to - I assume it’s the former....
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
I am pleased to hear this and I hope the rate comes down further for Cat owners, if you dare to be different and are prepared to go slowly and contribute to a greener world then it's a greedy marina that will look to take advantage. I have never been on one but would assume they could be tricky to berth just based on pure dimensions. I think I would be fixated on getting the correct berth prior to arrival
Ian h
Well-Known Member
That is the same at Saxon Wharf where a lot of smaller boats have arrived,
Looking at the British buyer / owner though I get the feeling they are getting older. The younger generation can not afford to get into boating these days,
When I started boating there were photo's of Littlehampton marine with 4 Large compounds full of trailer boats and all used on a regular basis. 200+ boats. this has now shrunk down to 1 small compound with less than 30 boats in.
looking in the average uk marina. how many of the boats get used on a regular basis ?
As has already been said most of the British 3 boats go for export. I think the next 5 - 10 years will see a reduction in UK boat ownership. Will this also effect the industry ? Think not
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I suspect it's neither.
Groupe Bénéteau has been very good at building no-nonsense boats and offering them at reasonable price, industrializing and streamlining their building processes (also in the upper segment btw - see MCY).
Otoh, for most gin palace builders, the business model has always been (and still is) based exactly on the opposite philosophy.
So, my guess is that rather than "can't react", they actually don't want to, preferring to hang onto the same old way, in the hope that profitability will be granted by larger boats...
paul salliss
Well-Known Member
Totally agree. Thank goodness for Group Beneteau as well. My Antares was a great way for me to get into boating.
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, well if a company chooses not to diversify, adapt to market demands, target sector similar opportunities and increase margin through efficiency then perhaps it’s because they don’t want to, in the same way our teenage son ‘didn’t want to’ eat his greens
or that Toys are Us didn’t want to react to e-commerce
There’s a whole world of new business out there, every midlife crisis couple reaching the coencidence of a high equity position and an empty nest are a potential customer - and generally they don’t want a traditional Motor Yacht.
I’d love it if one of the UK manafactures really went for it in terms of a long legged, regenerative, hybrid motor cat or even monohull....
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I don,t think it’s an accident ,like they have never considered entering the trawler mkt ,or hybrid propulsion systems .
They have made a concious decision to stay out for the moment .
It may be more of a marketing issue not wanting to dilute the brand or move the brand in that direction .
How ever they could do both ,just rebrand the trawler side , bit like Toyota vs Lexus - realise that’s a different direction UP .Beni Vs MCY .
But the principle is the same if they don,t think the current brand image that’s been carefully managed needs protection?
But FL ,Priny and SS seem to want move into the sporty day ish / villa owner Med glamour segment and keep the brand name on those new lines .
Indeed think FL,s “ GTO “range ,
There’s only a certain amount of exsisting production capacity without expensive new facilities ,and if the order book is healthy- ie current stuff is shifting then by default they are doing somthing right .
Aside others are well established now and our 3 equally at what they do
How ever possibly there way in to the regeneration/ hybrids market will from the top down like this .
40m entirely do able for SS and Priny - the tech is out there now .
http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/files/Columbus_40SH.pdf
There’s one in our marina actually owned by the 25 th son ( or other?) of the Sultan of Oman .
It’s easier to package the tech in bigger hulls without compromising the living spaces as much and the benefits are greater in terms of % ,s
Then like most tech it will shrink down ,trickle down to the ave joe boaters .
There’s more profit in going large too .Ask Sunseeker .Princess recognises this and FL ,s move to shore side facilities- at last confirms this too .
The number of buyers call them HNW or UHNW worldwide is increasing to keep the supply pipeline of punters .
It’s just a case of aligning the marketing strategy and staying focused not getting distracted as said there’s only a certain amount of production capacity
These allready do the hybrid / geny / stuff that our 3 will eventually enter the mkt doing .
http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/images/Hybrid.gif
These are allready in the normal trawler mkt that our 3 elect to leave it to them .Brand dilution issues ? Lack of capacity etc
https://imgur.com/a/TTSz7
They have made a concious decision to stay out for the moment .
It may be more of a marketing issue not wanting to dilute the brand or move the brand in that direction .
How ever they could do both ,just rebrand the trawler side , bit like Toyota vs Lexus - realise that’s a different direction UP .Beni Vs MCY .
But the principle is the same if they don,t think the current brand image that’s been carefully managed needs protection?
But FL ,Priny and SS seem to want move into the sporty day ish / villa owner Med glamour segment and keep the brand name on those new lines .
Indeed think FL,s “ GTO “range ,
There’s only a certain amount of exsisting production capacity without expensive new facilities ,and if the order book is healthy- ie current stuff is shifting then by default they are doing somthing right .
Aside others are well established now and our 3 equally at what they do
How ever possibly there way in to the regeneration/ hybrids market will from the top down like this .
40m entirely do able for SS and Priny - the tech is out there now .
http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/files/Columbus_40SH.pdf
There’s one in our marina actually owned by the 25 th son ( or other?) of the Sultan of Oman .
It’s easier to package the tech in bigger hulls without compromising the living spaces as much and the benefits are greater in terms of % ,s
Then like most tech it will shrink down ,trickle down to the ave joe boaters .
There’s more profit in going large too .Ask Sunseeker .Princess recognises this and FL ,s move to shore side facilities- at last confirms this too .
The number of buyers call them HNW or UHNW worldwide is increasing to keep the supply pipeline of punters .
It’s just a case of aligning the marketing strategy and staying focused not getting distracted as said there’s only a certain amount of production capacity
These allready do the hybrid / geny / stuff that our 3 will eventually enter the mkt doing .
http://www.columbusyachts.it/sites/all/files/userfiles/images/Hybrid.gif
These are allready in the normal trawler mkt that our 3 elect to leave it to them .Brand dilution issues ? Lack of capacity etc
https://imgur.com/a/TTSz7
Last edited:
EmptyPontoon
Member
Premier Port Solent seem to be thinking the other way. Work is currently going on down here to accommodate more of the larger boats by remodelling a number of pontoons, something which has upset a number of long term bertholder according to rumour.
KevB
Well-Known Member
They are adjusting pontoons in Chichester marina too which seems to be for the same reason.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
True on paper, but that's a reasoning which I already heard at least a couple of decades ago.
In spite of that, the boating industry didn't do much since then - aside from building on top of planing hulls some trawler resembling superstructures (mostly meant to appeal a greenish fashion than anything else).
Imho, the simple truth can be summarized in two points:
1) Mobos (ANY of them!) are a silly way to travel, and they are much better exploited as floating caravans, to really enjoy the sea rather than "fighting" it in long passages which inevitably include night cruising, the odd bad weather, etc.
I accept that some folks like that instead, but they are the exception that proves the rule.
2) When mobos are used as floating caravans, fuel is an almost trivial component, in the big scheme of boat ownership costs.
Sure, the overall running costs of 2 x 15 liters engines are higher compared to 1 x 6 liter (which is the ballpark difference for a P vs. D 50 footer), but for anyone who care to do a bit of proper math, the difference is nowhere near enough to become a critical factor in the decision.
