What is the true state of the U.K Boat industry ?

[petem]

I blame ITV for cancelling Bullseye.

 

[jfm]

True on paper, but that's a reasoning which I already heard at least a couple of decades ago.
In spite of that, the boating industry didn't do much since then - aside from building on top of planing hulls some trawler resembling superstructures (mostly meant to appeal a greenish fashion than anything else).

Imho, the simple truth can be summarized in two points:

1) Mobos (ANY of them!) are a silly way to travel, and they are much better exploited as floating caravans, to really enjoy the sea rather than "fighting" it in long passages which inevitably include night cruising, the odd bad weather, etc.
I accept that some folks like that instead, but they are the exception that proves the rule.

2) When mobos are used as floating caravans, fuel is an almost trivial component, in the big scheme of boat ownership costs.
Sure, the overall running costs of 2 x 15 liters engines are higher compared to 1 x 6 liter (which is the ballpark difference for a P vs. D 50 footer), but for anyone who care to do a bit of proper math, the difference is nowhere near enough to become a critical factor in the decision.

Agreed 100%
I'm not as negative as Deleted User on the future of diesel/oil fuel. Electricity has a huge future in things like cars where you're in dense cities and where otherwise wasted braking energy is recovered, but in situations where there is nothing to recover and you need enormous joules per kilo or per litre (namely planes and boats) oil has imho a longer future than Deleted User predicts.

 

[jfm]

I’d love it if one of the UK manafactures really went for it in terms of a long legged, regenerative, hybrid motor cat or even monohull....

Nigel I don't get the regenerative part, and it's a major point in this context. Regeneration is huge in cars but non existent in planes and boats. Unless you mean wind generation, in which case you might as well just sail

 

[oldgit]

observations regards club with around 100 boats on moorings.

Only real movement is churn with owners of old boats 1970s- 1980s buying slightly newer versions perhaps a decade newer and mostly upsizing but not much.
One or two 12m Jeanneau appearing but again second hand and replacing older vessels of similar size.
The odd returner, who having sold their boat swearing never to boat again, returning to boating with a mid nineties classic Prin/Fair flybridge.
Any new boaters ? one or two but with entry level sports boats mostly powered by petrol.
Owners of bigger more substantial vessels sit on the their hands moaning about price to change.
Nary a sniff of anything new large or small.
Coming down the line a substantial number of semi distress sales of boats bought by early baby boomers who are no longer with us.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Nigel I don't get the regenerative part, and it's a major point in this context. Regeneration is huge in cars but non existent in planes and boats. Unless you mean wind generation, in which case you might as well just sail

House ac/dc John, just a little effort in wind/hydro and solar would be a selling point.
With 4 x 140w panels I can sit at anchor for 24 hours, (in PT), and break even. Hot water needs to be made and that’s an opportunity also, considering the solar panel and tank I have on the roof in the the house here keeps us going all day.

So I think that the perception of boondocking for weeks at an anchorage with no need to wind up the gen set and a deisel electric power train for long legged globe trotting is a thing that will happen.

What about a solar motor sail, great to lean into the heel and making some juice in the way?

Of course, without huge advances in battery tech - we’re a ways off from a Tesla of the oceans but then again, the deisel electric submarines that I served on in the 80’s could run silent for several days at a time.

But my point is more that there’s not one U.K. builder making a motor boat for a for a full time couple, like Ann and I, not one building wonderlust Catamarans and no one is pushing the envelope in terms of carbon low habitation.

Of course, there are sail boats but I can’t help thinking that MY builders are not trying hard enough.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agreed 100%
I'm not as negative as Deleted User on the future of diesel/oil fuel. Electricity has a huge future in things like cars where you're in dense cities and where otherwise wasted braking energy is recovered, but in situations where there is nothing to recover and you need enormous joules per kilo or per litre (namely planes and boats) oil has imho a longer future than Deleted User predicts.

I hope youre right given the fact that our son is currently doing a Masters degree in Petroleum Geoscience. IMHO the future use of oil for powering pleasure boats is not about availability or alternative technologies but about politics. As I said, in a world where road vehicle buyers are going to be coerced to go electric and with revenue from fuel duty decreasing as a result, its a pretty good bet that govts are going to ramp up taxes on fossil fuels massively, except obviously for essential industries where there is no alternative. Then it is also a good bet that the environmental lobby are going to be more successful at persuading govts to ban fossil fuelled craft from some areas which are deemed environmentally sensitive, or at least fossil fuelled pleasure craft. I'm not saying this is going to happen this year, next year or anytime soon but maybe in a 20-40yr time scale. There is also a huge marketing opportunity here. Any boat builder that introduces new technology to the market that is going to allow motorboats to be significantly more fuel efficient than current gas guzzling gin palaces is going to clean up. Btw by that I dont mean a hybrid boat that can power a boat at 5kts for 5 miles but a boat that can cruise for say 100 miles at 20kts

 

[jfm]

House ac/dc John, just a little effort in wind/hydro and solar would be a selling point.
With 4 x 140w panels I can sit at anchor for 24 hours, (in PT), and break even. Hot water needs to be made and that’s an opportunity also, considering the solar panel and tank I have on the roof in the the house here keeps us going all day.

So I think that the perception of boondocking for weeks at an anchorage with no need to wind up the gen set and a deisel electric power train for long legged globe trotting is a thing that will happen.

What about a solar motor sail, great to lean into the heel and making some juice in the way?

Of course, without huge advances in battery tech - we’re a ways off from a Tesla of the oceans but then again, the deisel electric submarines that I served on in the 80’s could run silent for several days at a time.

But my point is more that there’s not one U.K. builder making a motor boat for a for a full time couple, like Ann and I, not one building wonderlust Catamarans and no one is pushing the envelope in terms of carbon low habitation.

Of course, there are sail boats but I can’t help thinking that MY builders are not trying hard enough.

I don't disagree your general thrust here Nigel but you have to be mindful of quantities using current solar power and battery tech. Your 4x140w might on a good day make 6.7kwh (I've assumed they run at that output 12 hours, which is generous). That's about 20 megajoules. Diesel contains is 3.5 MJ per litre, so your panels make the same energy quantity as say 10 litres of diesel (allowing for inefficient burn), which is a side show rounding difference in the context of the boating market/industry imho.

Separately, outside the super yacht world (where you need to manage the energy losses from turning over huge Diesel engines) it is hard to see the point of diesel electric propulsion given that there is no energy to recover from braking.

 

[jfm]

I hope youre right given the fact that our son is currently doing a Masters degree in Petroleum Geoscience. IMHO the future use of oil for powering pleasure boats is not about availability or alternative technologies but about politics. As I said, in a world where road vehicle buyers are going to be coerced to go electric and with revenue from fuel duty decreasing as a result, its a pretty good bet that govts are going to ramp up taxes on fossil fuels massively, except obviously for essential industries where there is no alternative. Then it is also a good bet that the environmental lobby are going to be more successful at persuading govts to ban fossil fuelled craft from some areas which are deemed environmentally sensitive, or at least fossil fuelled pleasure craft. I'm not saying this is going to happen this year, next year or anytime soon but maybe in a 20-40yr time scale. There is also a huge marketing opportunity here. Any boat builder that introduces new technology to the market that is going to allow motorboats to be significantly more fuel efficient than current gas guzzling gin palaces is going to clean up. Btw by that I dont mean a hybrid boat that can power a boat at 5kts for 5 miles but a boat that can cruise for say 100 miles at 20kts

Yep, and I'm not massively arguing with you. But if fuel became 3x today's price due to tax hikes would it really stop everyone boating? When I started out with a fairline 42 in 1999 fuel was 20p. Now is is 6x or more. I would have bought that boat then if fuel were 120p then. A big fuel rise will imho impact behaviours but not the very existence of boating per se. Man has always pleasure boated.
I agree there is risk of a total ban in the very long term but I see it as low risk and VERY long term, and countries will compete so that you can just move your boating to where it is still allowed.
As for a step change in fuel efficiency, the problem is laws of physics. To move a boat you have to move a lot of viscous fluid called water. The way to do it is some combo of (a) having sails and (b) smaller boat (c) going more slowly, and those technologies exist right now. In due course there will be better solar energy conversion hardware and better batteries, but we are a long way from getting the power needed to move a big boat fast. I realise I'm stating the obvious

 

[Nigelpickin]

But are there areas on a motorboat that could generate a free return, alternators on trim tabs, wind resistance turbines, solar water silos for example?

But of course you are correct, to get a 20 ton 50’ boat up and over and keep it going then a couple of decent alternators and some smart batteries and an inverter are going to do far more than my solar set up so there’s no need for more than that on most pleasure boats.

There’s just something very special about being tied up or on the hook but not plugged in, of course I can’t use my Ocean LEDs for long in that scenario!

 

[MapisM]

maybe in a 20-40yr time scale

Well, myself and swmbo will be 78-98 yo by then.
Somewhere in between would be nice, but I can subscribe also to the worst case.
In a sense, it might even be entertaining, when we'll be old farts (even more than we already are, I mean), to jump on the environmental bandwagon and insist that fuel for pleasure boats should be hypertaxed, if not banned completely!

 

[DavidJ]

From a non-representative observation of just one marina, the occupancy is "up" compared to 5 years ago.
But the average size of boat has shrunk: there are plenty of smaller, newer boats with outboards, Merry Fishers and so on.
There are fewer 30-45ft boats from what I can see.

That’s interesting because where we are in Spain they have cleared out half of the sub 20ft spaces and put in 40 ft plus boats sideways on. I’ve been in the marina for 10 years and at 37ft used to feel that I had a large boat, now I’m feeling quite average......this is where you go ahhhhhh!

 

[burgundyben]

I don't disagree your general thrust here Nigel but you have to be mindful of quantities using current solar power and battery tech. Your 4x140w might on a good day make 6.7kwh (I've assumed they run at that output 12 hours, which is generous). That's about 20 megajoules. Diesel contains is 3.5 MJ per litre, so your panels make the same energy quantity as say 10 litres of diesel (allowing for inefficient burn), which is a side show rounding difference in the context of the boating market/industry imho.

Maths gone a bit awry there as diesel engines are what? 30% efficient?

 

[burgundyben]

alternators on trim tabs, wind resistance turbines

Wouldn't both of those cause greater fuel burn?

 

[burgundyben]

But my point is more that there’s not one U.K. builder making a motor boat for a for a full time couple, like Ann and I, not one building wonderlust Catamarans and no one is pushing the envelope in terms of carbon low habitation.

Of course, there are sail boats but I can’t help thinking that MY builders are not trying hard enough.

I am totally with you on this point. Retirement is 9 years away. I will be looking for a used boat, displacement, long range, about 35ft, with enough solar on the cabin roof to keep a fridge running and enough solar hotwater for us to shower. No genset - if for what ever reason I run out of domestic battery charge, I'll fire up and run the main engine.

 

[jfm]

Maths gone a bit awry there as diesel engines are what? 30% efficient?

My maths is ok BB.

 

[jfm]

Wouldn't both of those cause greater fuel burn?

Yup exactly. There is nothing free about energy from alternators on trim tabs, on a mobo.

 

[Nigelpickin]

Yup exactly. There is nothing free about energy from alternators on trim tabs, on a mobo.

I’m going to ask, regardless of the fear of coming across as a numpty...but if say I dragged two canes along the ground, one in each hand; one had a blunt base and the other a wheel, would the one with the wheel be needing less or more energy than the one being dragged - if there’s force going over the trim tab that’s effectively being burned, couldn’t it be captured?

Stupid question and getting completely off thread, so sorry but I’m ready to be schooled so standing by...

 

[oldgit]

Yup exactly. There is nothing free about energy from alternators on trim tabs, on a mobo.

If moored in tidal stream, you could enjoy some "free" energy for 99% the lifetime of most boats, a method of preventing the extra drag when underway would be useful.

 

[MapisM]

if there’s force going over the trim tab that’s effectively being burned, couldn’t it be captured?

It ain't "burned", if by that you mean wasted - it's converted into additional hull lift.
I suppose that theoretically you could replace the trim tabs with something like a paddlewheel which absorbs an equivalent amount of energy for spinning an alternator and produce current, but you'd be back to the drawing board with the hull lift.

 

[MapisM]

If moored in tidal stream, you could enjoy some "free" energy for 99% the lifetime of most boats

True, this is indeed a possible "free" source of energy.
Not applicable in the Med (aside from a few exceptions of marinas along rivers), but I suppose that might be worth considering in many places in the UK.