Graham376
Well-known member
Why are you using hard antifoul? Soft is far better for a yacht and no need to have professionals spray it or have a diver to clean it every two weeks.
What I might did wrong with my antifauling?
- Thread starter slawosz
- Start date
Why are you using hard antifoul? Soft is far better for a yacht and no need to have professionals spray it or have a diver to clean it every two weeks.
Spirit (of Glenans)
Well-known member
I can't u de
The idea of licensing A/F for professional application only is very counterintuitive. It's just about the only job on a boat you could expect to be done competently by a rank amateur.
Graham376
Well-known member
Is it licensing? I buy Jotun here in Portugal which I wouldn't be able to in UK, restriction on sale I'm told is due to Jotun UK. Who are the professional applicators anyway? Many boat yard employees scrubbing off and antifouling are unskilled labour who haven't been on any recognised training courses.
jwfrary
Well-known member
Purely pointing out, and maybe it's a uk government thing, but I expect its its actually wider, that the restriction on sale of the commercial antifoul is to do with the chemical make up and not the applicator.
Theres plenty if professional only products here in the uk, seems they are the ones that work. This I dont believe has any bearing on the DIY use, except possibly that if claim was made against performance (or you drank it...) then the company would be able to wriggle off the hook.
I wouldnt be so quick to tar all yard and yard employees with the same brush, the yard j use take on apprentices who attend a college course and then are proactive about further training afterwards. This is reflected in the work done and quality of the output.
Stemar
Well-known member
No expert, but could the colour be relevant? I've heard it said that the copper in the antifoul is quite dark in colour, so the lighter the colour of the antifoul, the less copper they can put in it.
Spirit (of Glenans)
Well-known member
I can buy Jotun in Ireland with no restrictions. The UK restrictions are attributable to 'Elf&Safety!
Spirit (of Glenans)
Well-known member
I can buy Jotun in Ireland with no restrictions.
slawosz
Active member
I am going to keep the boat for at least next 5 years. But CC for my boat would cost around 400-500 which is not end of the world (I believe good stuff will cost me around 100 plus preparation time). If I decide to sell earlier (but I don't have time now for bigger boat) it will show the buyer (rather correct) impression that despite look here and there the boat is not a project.
Graham376
Well-known member
I suspect it's so they can sell higher priced products to the leisure market
Tranona
Well-known member
That is only the material cost. The big expense is in the preparation, particularly if you have an iron keel. You have to take GRP back to the gel coat which is either a long, boring physically demanding job or have it blasted. If you have an iron keel then blasting is essential. You also have to do the application in good conditions, preferably under cover. If you don't do it properly you are wasting your time and money.
Laser310
Well-known member
even though I don't race this boat much.., i am mostly a racing sailor - the boat bottom has been faired by a good shop and it looks great.
It would be a crime to put a soft paint on this bottom
also, my sailing spot has very warm water that promotes growth - i am pretty sure that I would need a diver every other week, no matter what paint i used - i will not sail with anything other than a clean bottom.., it would drive me crazy.
this is not an uncommon approach here - a lot of sailors at my club have racing bottoms on boats that don't race. The diver who services the boats at my club does a good business... boats that do race are cleaned every week, - that's what i did with my previous boat, which i was racing weekly.
Graham376
Well-known member
Problem is, some people think CC is just a slap on alternative to antifouling. Another consideration is moisture content in hull, there's no point in applying over damp hull and it can take a long time to dry to acceptable level.
thinwater
Well-known member
I've been involved in panel tests of Copper Coat. It did not impress, fouling quickly unless scrubbed aggressively with abrasive several times each year. Then it was just sub-average. We put it on boats. It did not impress, same story. Popularity is very low--not proof of anything, but a hint. Yes, it absolutely can work, but more scrubbing seems to be required and the initial application is 2-3 times more work than a good 2-3 season antifouling, so if it lasts 10 years I still don't see how you are ahead (I would be pulling the boat every 2-3 years for some reason anyway).
In low fouling waters, and places where scrubbing is not unpleasant, OK. But probably more work and more fouling, based on the experiences I have seen.
People that buy something they are not very happy with also tend to under report; they are a little embarrassed. You hear most about what is superlative and what is awful. I got 3 years in a high fouling area from my last paint (PCA gold AKA Pettit SR 40), so I'll give that a shout-out. Slapped on two coats in one day, including the required scratch sand. Most of it wore away, and 2 weeks ago I repainted, again in one day. About $150/gallon on sale.
I think my real point is that the OP is probably not ready for that kind of undertaking. Lots of prep. Careful application. An ablative like Pettit Odyssy HD (like SR40) is the better choice for him. But there are many opinions.
Tranona
Well-known member
Very different from my experience and that of the many people that I know who have Coppercoat - the very reason why I chose it. I have never scrubbed mine with abrasives in the 6 years it has been on and it performs as well now as when first applied. This, by observation and the many comments here including this thread seems the norm.
I do agree that it is probably not the solution for the OP as the cost of doing it properly on a small older boat might outweigh the benefits
I do agree that it is probably not the solution for the OP as the cost of doing it properly on a small older boat might outweigh the benefits
AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
+1. And when I thought about scrubbing mine a couple of years ago, AMC looked at photos I'd taken and advised against it - their reasoning was that if it's a green colour, then it's working well, with plenty of copper exposed. Scrubbing unnecessarily simply shortens its life; AMC only advise it if the Coppercoat fails to start to work; once it's working it should not be necessary. I've only ever had mine pressure washed, and even after 4 years in the water, there was only slime.
I had mine professionally grit blasted, but applied the coppercoat myself, with my late wife and a friend. After 7 years it's perfectly ok except on the cast iron keel, which I had done with conventional antifoul this year. But even the majority of the keel was still ok.
A racer would probably want to clean it more frequently, but the impression I get is that it reaches a steady state and a passage at sea dislodges the majority of the marina growth.
From what I understand, the major reason for failure is not ensuring the proportion of copper is kept constant and failing to stir it constantly until immediately before using the roller. The copper sinks quite quickly, so it's very easy to get copper poor layers. If the outer layers are copper poor, then it's not going to be very effective. We had one person (my late wife) constantly mixing and stirring, and it was a full-time job. As she was a Chartered Chemist with a PhD, I think she got it right!
LONG_KEELER
Well-known member
I have a number of friends who are happy with Copper Coat but still come out of the water annually for anodes, scrub etc. Most, like myself, go into a cradle for a week in the summertime at a much reduced rate.
The economics , as mentioned , do not work out for me and I'm happy to still apply hard antifouling with regular scrubbing using a Scrubbis . My last three boats have all had lifting keels which need extra inspection.
Like 2 stroke outboards etc, the leisure sailors will continue to have ever increasing limitations put upon them. Scrubbing the bottom without proper waste collection is now on the horizon, and ever reducing biocide packages are with us now. If I had shares in Copper Coat I don't think I would be selling them just yet.
I still feel the future lies with products like Silic 1 . Good reports are starting to come through now even for displacement hulls. Not quite as much work as required by Copper Coat, but still significant, particularly for DIY application both time and weather dependent. More data still needs to come through before taking the plunge.
The economics , as mentioned , do not work out for me and I'm happy to still apply hard antifouling with regular scrubbing using a Scrubbis . My last three boats have all had lifting keels which need extra inspection.
Like 2 stroke outboards etc, the leisure sailors will continue to have ever increasing limitations put upon them. Scrubbing the bottom without proper waste collection is now on the horizon, and ever reducing biocide packages are with us now. If I had shares in Copper Coat I don't think I would be selling them just yet.
I still feel the future lies with products like Silic 1 . Good reports are starting to come through now even for displacement hulls. Not quite as much work as required by Copper Coat, but still significant, particularly for DIY application both time and weather dependent. More data still needs to come through before taking the plunge.
TNLI
Active member
Please see the photos. The boat launched in July, retrieved end of October. One layer of flag cruising, except keel, where I put 2 layers. Was my first AF job. I got the boat just antifauled in 2019, probably using flag and there was just a little bit of slime... And used this to paint: No Nonsense 9
Photos:
UMM, seems to be a claasic case of you get what you pay for, and the paint used is a cheap one and one or two coats from a roller is nowhere near enough paint to work well for a year plus. It's failed completly near the waterline, probably because the paint fell off or is just too thin .
My very last anti fouling job consisted of a homebrew paint based on Wilcos basic exterior whitewash, (They do other colours), with a bag of Cayenne pepper, (Make sure it does not contain any salt etc), from a local Chinese food shop. Once that was stirred into the whitewash, it turned a sort of off pink.
I then mixed in some Tetracycline powder obtained from a dodgy vetenary supplies dealer I know. The Cayenne pepper cost me a tenner and was enough for a 2.5 liter tin of Wilco whitewash. Alas the antibiotic powder cost me 40 quid and that was mates rates. The stuff on Fleabay is no good as its just talc base I think, and just a con job. It lasted 2 years in salt water 24/7 and only failed because it started to break up along the waterline, possibly due to lack of primer, as I was running low on it.
Not sure if mix your own is legal, but it sure works better than any other type of anti fouling, unless it's a tin based illegal paint imported from the USA or Royal Navy yard bins! I managed to get that awesome paint some years ago, and it lasted 5 years in South American waters.
I gave up buying expensive legal Copper based paints many years ago, as they don't work too well in the tropics. My present plan is to run aground at low tide about once a month and spend a few hours scrubbing the whitewash clean, IF I can't afford the antibiotic powder. The Cayenne helps, but the Tetracycline really nails the marine growth for at least a year.
It's not a lack of stirring problem, as the paint has failed along the waterline only. The lower hull just needs a wipe.
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AntarcticPilot
Well-known member
There are several biological approaches at the research stage; my own guess is that they're the future. Unfortunately, what I know is covered by non-disclosure agreements, and also professional ethics - I wouldn't get much work if people thought I talked about unpublished work. But people are studying all sorts of fundamental biology to try and find environmentally acceptable, efficient solutions. And I only know of the work of one fairly small group.
Don't forget that fouling is a major economic issue for shipping and marine installations generally. The latter includes things like oil platforms, wind turbines, tide turbines and many others, so solutions that depend on speed through the water are only a partial answer. So far copper based systems are hard to beat - the basic problem is that fouling organisms range across a vast taxonomic range, from plants to animals, from bacteria to crustaceans, and even primitive chordates. Copper is a broad spectrum poison that isn't too bad environmentally, but the ideal would be something that disrupts the ecology of fouling, but without long-range effects.
TNLI
Active member
How can you get Jotron tin based in the UK ??
2 or 3 coats might be enough on the keel, but not along the waterline. If you want cheap paints to work for at least a year, use 2 or 3 coats of scrubbable all over, then overcoat it with a good rub off ablative, BUT concentrate on areas near the waterline or where the hydraulic flow is turbulent, like the rudder aft of the prop. The combination of the 2 types of paint should be effective enough for 2 years, if you get lucky. The job can be done in one warm day if you have the gear to spray the paint on. Not sure if that is allowed in any UK yard or not, but spraying produces a better even result. AF paint is toxic to breath, so you will need a forced air system, or scuba gear!
TNLI
Active member
You defintely need to use a real good electric stirrer, although you will find one in most kitchens that works well. Using big tins like the 2.5 litre ones is a real bad move for the amateur painter, as they are too difficult to stir up correctly without a machine paint pot mixer!
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