What did PhillM do wrong?

[PhillM]

The RNLI called it "Castle Rocks". It appears to be west of the Eastern entrance. What I find hard to work out is how I actually ended up North of the breakwater, as when they towed me to Mayflower it was both without having to pass the breakwater and directly past some anchored ships (which is why I thought I was in safe water).

 

[LadyInBed]

With regards to losing GPS, assuming it was not down to an attack by a foreign power, a second device up and running during testing circumstances is a good idea.

It has been known for RN to to jam occasionally!
For me, not carrying paper charts, a form of backup plotter and a backup to the backup plotter (in the form of Tablet and Phone both with Ocpn and (old) CM93 charts) is essential.
Then if the GPS I/P goes fut on all of them I know that someone has it in for me.

 

[PhillM]

With regards to GPS, I have a phone with navonics on it, that too was not working as it should, it seemed to have me well inland, I have never really trusted it. I also have a hand held in the grab bag. But as i was in pilotage mode, I was mainly looking at my notes and trying to use the almanac as backup.

I don’t subscribe to GPS blocking going on. However, I don't tend to find the Garmin or handhelds work that well when the weather gets grotty. Perhaps I need a better / external antenna.

 

[Phildorset]

Another thank you and well done for an honest offering, I agree with previous posters that without good visibility in decent weather Plymouth is testing for a small boat without accurate GPS, I've had my most tense sailing experience entering via the western entrance in a SE gale at night - and that was with GPS functioning fully, we (a good few years ago, in an Ovni & plus crew of 4) never saw the breakwater, but heard the waves crashing on it. I too sail my boat solo, but I do where possible choose to my journeys in short hops & so am almost always arriving in daylight, though I am building up to join you chaps in some Jester sailing.
I'm not going to criticise as I'm thinking I may well have done the same as you - but what I think I know I should do is to head out again and wait a few hours for daylight, I do have AIS though which would at least show up most (I hope) of the bigger shipping.
Thanks for posting this - it's a useful discussion I think.

 

[RichardS]

It's a very good account Phil.

I must say that I'm a total coward, after having had a near miss some years ago which would have probably written the boat off, so am always thinking about Plan B and Plan C. As soon as the second thing went wrong for me, I would have thrown in the towel and started going around in circles, or similar, until the light began to appear over the horizon.

It seems a bit like an omen to me .... one thing goes wrong you put that down to bad luck and soldier on, two things go wrong in a way that one compounds the other and you have to accept that someone is now out to get you and it's time to stop and re-assess. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[john_morris_uk]

I’m trying to imagine myself into a similar situation, with the challenge being that I know Plymouth extremely well.

If I was tired and needing rest with the wind in the WSW I’d be looking at the chart and feeling my way into Cawsand and dropping the hook. One eye on the echo sounder ensures you don’t hit the unlit shoreline and you feel your way round and into shelter. A big torch to watch out for mooring buoys but hopefully you’d avoid using it as it ruins your night vision. No GPS needed for any of this sort of pilotage.

As soon as you’re anywhere sheltered it’s drop the hook on a good scope, anchor light on and check you’re not dragging and sleep. It’s the sort of thing I’ve done in many places where I’ve arrived one or two up, tired after a long passage and in the dark.

My two penny worth FWIW.

I admit I have the advantage of having Radar which makes the above exercise simplicity itself, but without radar it’s foolproof and safe. Just choose a shoreline with no surprise rocks. Look at the chart and make a mental note such as ‘no dangers outside the ten metre contour’ or similar. So long as the e/s reads more than ten metres plus height of tide you CAN’T hit anything.

 

[Kukri]

I’m trying to imagine myself into a similar situation, with the challenge being that I know Plymouth extremely well.

If I was tired and needing rest with the wind in the WSW I’d be looking at the chart and feeling my way into Cawsand and dropping the hook. One eye on the echo sounder ensures you don’t hit the unlit shoreline and you feel your way round and into shelter. A big torch to watch out for mooring buoys but hopefully you’d avoid using it as it ruins your night vision. No GPS needed for any of this sort of pilotage.

As soon as you’re anywhere sheltered it’s drop the hook on a good scope, anchor light on and check you’re not dragging and sleep. It’s the sort of thing I’ve done in many places where I’ve arrived one or two up, tired after a long passage and in the dark.

My two penny worth FWIW.

I admit I have the advantage of having Radar which makes the above exercise simplicity itself, but without radar it’s foolproof and safe. Just choose a shoreline with no surprise rocks. Look at the chart and make a mental note such as ‘no dangers outside the ten metre contour’ or similar. So long as the e/s reads more than ten metres plus height of tide you CAN’T hit anything.

I have a fraction of John's experience, and I have been luckier than Phil when I didn't deserve to be, but I would also have felt my way into Cawsand, unless the wind was in the east. I can say that with confidence as I've actually done that very thing in the past. Plymouth gives me kittens - huge entrance peppered with rocks that aren't lit, shore lights designed to confuse and a low breakwater. Yuk! Cawsand might have an unlit boat on a mooring etc but that's a lesser hazard imho.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

One thing to be very aware of is how a mobile device locates itself. In android, google will use GPS, WiFi, mobile networks, and even bluetooth to improve location accuracy, depending on the device and how the settings for location are set, it could be that your device isn't displaying a GPS position at all, but something else triangulated from cached WiFi data or other information. Apple can be just as tricky.

In Android devices you can turn off "improve location accuracy" (on by default) which will force the device to use GPS only. It can take a bit longer to get a fix but it won't latch onto WiFi info or anything else to obtain a quick location.

There is a good write-up here ....

http://www.oceannavigator.com/July-August-2018/Voyaging-electronics/

... anyone using an off-the-shelf tablet for navigation really needs to be aware of how the device locates itself, and that it is prudent to always be suspicious of the location and if possible, double check with a second (different) GPS device or preferably something with SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation System, WAAS, EGNOS, GAGAN or MSAS) - especially when in close proximity to land where WiFi, Cellular and other info is available to the device.

 

[FlyingGoose]

One thing to be very aware of is how a mobile device locates itself. In android, google will use GPS, WiFi, mobile networks, and even bluetooth to improve location accuracy, depending on the device and how the settings for location are set, it could be that your device isn't displaying a GPS position at all, but something else triangulated from cached WiFi data or other information. Apple can be just as tricky.



In Android devices you can turn off "improve location accuracy" (on by default) which will force the device to use GPS only. It can take a bit longer to get a fix but it won't latch onto WiFi info or anything else to obtain a quick location.

There is a good write-up here ....

http://www.oceannavigator.com/July-August-2018/Voyaging-electronics/

... anyone using an off-the-shelf tablet for navigation really needs to be aware of how the device locates itself, and that it is prudent to always be suspicious of the location and if possible, double check with a second (different) GPS device or preferably something with WAAS - especially when in close vacinity to land where WiFi, Cellular and other info is available to the device.

Very good advice , I needed to turn off all other data ingo on my yablet and have only GPS working so only OPENCPN could read it :encouragement:

 

[Kukri]

One thing to be very aware of is how a mobile device locates itself. In android, google will use GPS, WiFi, mobile networks, and even bluetooth to improve location accuracy, depending on the device and how the settings for location are set, it could be that your device isn't displaying a GPS position at all, but something else triangulated from cached WiFi data or other information. Apple can be just as tricky.

In Android devices you can turn off "improve location accuracy" (on by default) which will force the device to use GPS only. It can take a bit longer to get a fix but it won't latch onto WiFi info or anything else to obtain a quick location.

There is a good write-up here ....

http://www.oceannavigator.com/July-August-2018/Voyaging-electronics/

... anyone using an off-the-shelf tablet for navigation really needs to be aware of how the device locates itself, and that it is prudent to always be suspicious of the location and if possible, double check with a second (different) GPS device or preferably something with SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation System, WAAS, EGNOS, GAGAN or MSAS) - especially when in close vacinity to land where WiFi, Cellular and other info is available to the device.

+2. Very important point. And an excellent article showing how deceptive these gadgets can be.

 

[zoidberg]

The RNLI called it "Castle Rocks". It appears to be west of the Eastern entrance. What I find hard to work out is how I actually ended up North of the breakwater, as when they towed me to Mayflower it was both without having to pass the breakwater and directly past some anchored ships (which is why I thought I was in safe water).

That has me more than a little puzzled, for having peered at BA0030 - PLYMOUTH SOUND AND APPROACHES in detail, I don't see a 'Castle Rocks'. The question remains....

It is more than possible to become disoriented in 'the foggy, foggy dew' day or night, and more than a couple of experienced skippers have come to grief around there..... one was a Belgian OSTAR entrant who, with a full crew, ran hard onto the breakwater. Another was the RYA Yachtmaster skipper of 'KISHMUL OF AYR' who, seriously over-tired, ran hard onto Rennie's Rocks about 1 mile SE and short of the Eastern Entrance. Each of those resulted in a fatality. It is speculated, for we cannot know with certainly, that fatigue-influenced complacency subverted judgement.

It's more than a pity that the OP didn't identify Cawsand Bay, SW of the breakwater end, as a safe and easily-approached anchorage and built it into his 'pilotage plan' for entry into an unfamiliar haven. I do believe it has been mentioned before in a related thread....

It doesn't now help PhillM but may act as a reminder to others: I taught this to my students. I do it myself.

When anything other than certain, don't continue. STOP THE BOAT.

 

[JohnGC]

That has me more than a little puzzled, for having peered at BA0030 - PLYMOUTH SOUND AND APPROACHES in detail, I don't see a 'Castle Rocks'. The question remains....

It is more than possible to become disoriented in 'the foggy, foggy dew' day or night, and more than a couple of experienced skippers have come to grief around there..... one was a Belgian OSTAR entrant who, with a full crew, ran hard onto the breakwater. Another was the RYA Yachtmaster skipper of 'KISHMUL OF AYR' who, seriously over-tired, ran hard onto Rennie's Rocks about 1 mile SE and short of the Eastern Entrance. Each of those resulted in a fatality. It is speculated, for we cannot know with certainly, that fatigue-influenced complacency subverted judgement.

It's more than a pity that the OP didn't identify Cawsand Bay, SW of the breakwater end, as a safe and easily-approached anchorage and built it into his 'pilotage plan' for entry into an unfamiliar haven. I do believe it has been mentioned before in a related thread....

It doesn't now help PhillM but may act as a reminder to others: I taught this to my students. I do it myself.

When anything other than certain, don't continue. STOP THE BOAT.

I can't find Castle Rocks either. I'm also confused about Phill's statement;

I looked at the Eastern entrance and decided against entry. I then motored back west to see what the Western entrance looked like.

It may just be grammar; but coming from the east wouldn't you be motoring back to the east after looking at the western entrance?

Cawsand sometimes has large vessels at anchor. Closer inshore there are small boats moored and anchored. But once inside the 5m contour it's unlikely you'll meet anything big.

Very glad Phil is uninjured and able to tell the tale.

 

[PhillM]

I don't have a position, but this is what I can remember about where the rocks were. I had passed a couple of what looked to me to be sector lights. To Starboard there was a r /g pair and just to starboard of them were some anchored ships.

Ahead of me appeared to be a pool/ bay with a large circular block of flats ahead to port (and I do mean flats and not the fort). When the Police launch and RNLI towed me we first headed past the anchored ships and took a wide turn to port, then a tighter turn to starboard into Mayflower marina. I am pretty sure I was inside the breakwater as I think I could see it behind the anchored ships. The RNLI chap told me I was at the eastern end. Hopefully someone with local knowledge will be able to shed some light.

 

[LadyInBed]

That has me more than a little puzzled, for having peered at BA0030 - PLYMOUTH SOUND AND APPROACHES in detail, I don't see a 'Castle Rocks'.

Maybe it's Staddon Pt off Fort Bovisand. There is sailing water around Duke Rock

 

[FairweatherDave]

Pleased you have posted Phil. Thanks.
I wonder if Fort Rock = Castle rock too
Only looking at LadyInBed's chart and now his similar reply..........

 

[Appledore]

Ahead of me appeared to be a pool/ bay with a large circular block of flats ahead to port (and I do mean flats and not the fort). When the Police launch and RNLI towed me we first headed past the anchored ships and took a wide turn to port, then a tighter turn to starboard into Mayflower marina. I am pretty sure I was inside the breakwater as I think I could see it behind the anchored ships. The RNLI chap told me I was at the eastern end. Hopefully someone with local knowledge will be able to shed some light.

Now I am really confused. Like others, I cannot find a reference to Castle Rocks. and the only 'large circular block of flats' that I know of are the apartments at Fort Picklecombe, but they are on the western side.

 

[JohnGC]

I don't have a position, but this is what I can remember about where the rocks were. I had passed a couple of what looked to me to be sector lights. To Starboard there was a r /g pair and just to starboard of them were some anchored ships.

Ahead of me appeared to be a pool/ bay with a large circular block of flats ahead to port (and I do mean flats and not the fort). When the Police launch and RNLI towed me we first headed past the anchored ships and took a wide turn to port, then a tighter turn to starboard into Mayflower marina. I am pretty sure I was inside the breakwater as I think I could see it behind the anchored ships. The RNLI chap told me I was at the eastern end. Hopefully someone with local knowledge will be able to shed some light.

Circular and modern flats sounds like a small block near Mount Batten. Was it these?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.3...a40-ro-0-fo100!7i7200!8i3600?hl=en&authuser=0

 

[PhillM]

Now I am really confused. Like others, I cannot find a reference to Castle Rocks. and the only 'large circular block of flats' that I know of are the apartments at Fort Picklecombe, but they are on the western side.

Thats it! Fort Picklecombe - Just looked at the picture and recognise it. I thought it looked like a marina of some description ahead. That was part of my confusion.

It looks like I did come in the Western end, which was what I was trying to do and I thought that I had, until the RNLI said I must have come from the Eastern end.

I am glad that we got that sorted!

 

[sarabande]

Re: What PhillM did right ?

I think the title is wrong. So many positive things from the accident: skipper OK, boat mended, excellent analysis, lessons learned... "


"What PhillM did right"

 

[RichardS]

Thats it! Fort Picklecombe - Just looked at the picture and recognise it. I thought it looked like a marina of some description ahead. That was part of my confusion.

It looks like I did come in the Western end, which was what I was trying to do and I thought that I had, until the RNLI said I must have come from the Eastern end.

I am glad that we got that sorted!

So would it be right to say that you ran into the mainland coast, rather than running into a small island or shallows or reef or similar actually out in the sea?

I don't know the area at all so that might be a daft question.

Richard