What a Ripoff....

[Scubadoo]

After reading a post further down this forum recommending a look at http://www.what-a-ripoff.com/ , I wonder if this is legal or individuals risking being sued etc. Matt already mentioned his concern, just wondered if any of you have a view on the subject.

I would be interested posting my problems but don't want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire!

RM.

 

[longjohnsilver]

I have a problem with a site where you can post anything be it true or not where the other party not only has no right of defence or reply but almost certainly has no idea of its existence. Therefore the site is open to all sorts of abuse, maybe even from underhand competitors.

 

[tripleace]

I agree it is open to abuse, but with a little thought and a change in proceddures it could be excellent.

worth helping them get it right, so few people have the guts to do this sort of time these days

 

[kimhollamby]

Note of caution

Before anyone gets too carried away here can I just remind all users that it won't be helpful to see reports from sites of this nature reproduced in part or full within these forums.

The site in question seems to be carrying a lot of criticisms from one particular person with no apparent right of redress for the companies named. In some cases companies are named with no explanation at all, which seems legally terminal, let alone not being at all helpful for the rest of us.

At risk of launching straight into an explanation that lands me 20 replies saying I am trying to look after advertising revenue, objective reporting of valid complaints is one of the most costly and time-consuming jobs there is and the potential for getting it wrong, in a purely legal sense and factually as well, is high. I would urge caution in your own thinking where only one view is represented...in my time as editor of a marine magazine I must have received at least one complaint about every significant company out there but to reach a straightforward conclusion that the company is therefore rip-off and bad is very wrong, as any of you in business will know. In some cases the customer was not always entirely right, or could at least have exercised a healthier degree of caution.

I think a lot of valid issues get aired in this forum in a way that is sensible because often you, the users, represent both sides of the argument. Wherever possible we allow those debates to continue unless they express views or facts that we fear might not be able to be substantiated and/or where the evidence is not in our hands.

That might not always come across as the equivalent of a genetically-crossed Esther Ransen and Nick Ross but I think it is more constructive and ultimately more useful for all parties concerned. Ironically, that of course includes complaints about IPC that are very publicly aired from time to time.

 

[ccscott49]

Re: Note of caution

I also noticed it seemed to be one person venting his spleen, but is there no way, the rest of us can learn quickly from somebody elses obviously bad results, without waiting for two yeras to see the outcome of a court case, whilst other people get ripped off! We are resonably inteligent people can we not make up our own minds whether to believe the stories or not? There are some rather obvious cases of "ripping off" around!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The other side of the story

Just looked at this site and surprised to see Ebbtide Marine Engineering mentioned especially as I've recommended this company to a couple of people in the past as they've carried out good work on my boats for some years.
I spoke to David Shaw who owns Ebbtide and, for what its worth, this is the his side of the story. A certain Mr X contracted Shamrock Marine Services to carry out engine rebuild work on his boat. SMS sub-contracted the work to Ebbtide for £18k. Mr X paid SMS who promptly went bust before paying Ebbtide. There were some problems with the rebuild but Ebbtide were reluctant to rectify them as they were £18k out of pocket and there was no contractual relationship between Ebbtide and Mr X
It seems SMS have left quite a few people out of pocket but, surprise, surprise SMS has risen from the dead again and is trading under the same name and with the same personnel.
Apparently the Rip-off site is registered in the US and, therefore, libel action cannot be taken in the UK. Any lawyors out there might want to comment on that

 

[KevB]

Re: The other side of the story

IMHO we have been subjected to the "mushroom" syndrome (kept in the dark and fed $hit) by the marine industry as a whole for far to long.
If the site can be moderated and allow both sides to tell their stories it can only be a good thing. How else will we learn that manufacturer X has had problems with a particular product? More often than not they claim an isolated incident or poor maintenance (valves dropping after less than 200 hrs??) it's not like the car industry where we have organisations standing up for the motorist (AA/RAC).

The Marine industry is a cosy closed shop where poor workmanship and bad design
are accepted as the norm and we are stupid enough to let this be, inefficiencies are pushed under the carpet when fault is apportioned, we don't get to see the BIG picture

If this makes just a small part of the Marine industry think twice before ripping off another unsatisfied customer then it's a justifiable web site.

Phew!!! Rant over.

 

[Guest]

Re: Umm...

Really, i spose that's why they have judges innit?

Regardless of recomendations by others, things can go wrong, and as a compnay loads of people have legal stuff happening. I wdn't want to get all new labourish and say how lovely everything is mostly, but a great pity that large swathes of publicity regarding one cockup

With regard to this case, shows ebbtide as a nice trusting bunch and not getting loads of loot off the punter up front, but published by just one person who took the hit, by rather stupidly paying somebody else for a pile of work (all of it, it seems) before it was even completed. Praps it should say "don't be a bit of a tit like I was" or "next time go direct to the people doing the work, pay them in stages. But again, I don't know the details. So it shouldn't be blasted around, really.

Incidentally, I feel the same way about pompous restaurant reviewers, ripping into restaurants on the national presss based on just one short visit. I wonder how many small companies wd like this to happen to them, and if it's at all fair - on the day after they had just opened the business?

 

[KevB]

Re: Umm...

In the case of the restaurants you pays your money.................. If I want something cheap I'll go to McD's, if I want something nice I'll go to Covent Garden and if I want to be ripped off I'll go to the Ritz but a least I had a choice. With the marine industry the choices are limited, get ripped off or don't own a boat.

I have a friend who has recently bought a Farrari 355 Spyder, 5 days after delivery one of the rear wheels fell off, apparently during the pre delivery inspection someone forgot to tighten the wheel nuts!! The dealer sent out a car to pick Jo up and take him home, left him the car so he would not be without (it was another 355) picked up his car, fitted a new rear hub and wheel just in case it had been marked, returned his car two days later and gave him a four day all expenses paid trip to Maranelo for his inconvenience. That's customer service, a bad situation completely turned round and made good. He now has all the confidence in the world with Farrari and their dealer network (It wasn't even a brand new car)

Would anything like this have happened in the boat industry?? Dream on.

I am currently buying a new boat and was enquiring what I should do if a fault developed, the response was " what do you mean IF, it's a boat of course something will go wrong". I was a bit lost for words but thinking about it I don't know of anyone who has bought a boat from new and not had a problem. Maybe I just know unlucky people but I doubt it.

We allow bad workmanship and shoddy design to continue because we don't complain enough or have low expectations on what service we should receive.

 

[Guest]

Re: ooh, lots of contentious points

I see your points BUT!!!

Restaurants get one chance - they can't offer another meal, or fix the old one. That was you wedding anniversary. Actually, at the ritz, I proposed to my wife. Yes! on bended knee, I must have been very smashed er for the knee bit erm anyway. And the waiter just brought a bottle of champagne and said "that's on me". Ripoff? nope, I'm telling you about it. Tho i was quite skint at the time and thought it wd be just about okay (i got the prices, she didn't) but then elaised that the prices were for starters , not main courses eek..

So well done to ferrari for retrieving the total foulup. Good job nobody hurt tho with falling off wheel. Anyway they can afford it..with depreciation on a 456 running at 5grand a months for the first 18months before they buy it back at half price... or did I get ripped off?

Things like you describe DO happen in the boat industry, but only at the ferrari end of the market, where there's enough loot, and higher quality people. With small volumes, boats go wrong, and all ferraris I've ever heard of go wrong too, cos small engine hours (see postings elsewhere) and thrashing owners and fallible but well-meaning people involved.

Handbuilt things (and most things) by germans are less prone to faults imho:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxyou know why this got deleted - Kim xxxxxxxxxxxxx


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by kimhollamby on Tue Dec 4 11:45:50 2001 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[ChrisW]

Re: The other side of the story

I would like to join you in saying that I have known Ebbtide Marine for 7 years and would wholeheartedly reccomend them. As with SMS I worked for this company for a very brief period and can only say no comment. The critisism aimed at Mr Bentley Buckle I can not believe. Again I have known this gentleman for 7 years both as a employer and a friend and I have never known a person more unlikely to rip anybody off. The websit itself seems to be just one individuals attempt to vent their anger. Isn't it odd that only the Marine section has entries most of them from one individual.

 

[Guest]

Re: How to give a bad reference

hear hear, Chris.

how to give a bad reference: "If there were only three permitted classifications, these being "good", "very good" and "excellent"...i'd say they were "good" "

 

[Scubadoo]

Re: The other side of the story

I understand, because now I would be cautious of Ebb Tide and SMS, so harm done. But with your experience and others I would re-consider Ebb Tide.

Funny enough I was considering using SMS but after ready that website and other comments has put me off.

RM.

 

[Guest]

Re: however, burning bridges...

we do treat bankruptcy as "the pox" in the UK. I have no clue about the mentioned companies hereabiouts but a friedn went bust because the compnay to whom he sold a lease stopped trading, so the landlord turned back to him for 900k of back rent, and he went bust. A ratbag? Seems a bit harsh.

So now he's back in business. I firmly believe that he'll do everything he can to help earlier customers. Especially er the nitpot who posted all that stuff about him on the web?...

 

[paulineb]

Re: however, burning bridges...

Totally agree, Jon's company almost went under about 10 years ago, through no fault of his or his partner's. He was knocked for tens of thousands when he least needed it. The children were young, the mortgage was high and the bastards who did this to us were laughing. Jon decided to take them to court, even though the tax man, VAT, bank and other creditors would get first pickings; it was a matter of principle and at least the guys lost their houses because of it, even if we only got £15!!!!! After that, they set up in business 10 DAYS later. Bastards. We had the most awful couple of years, but through hard work and tears, we managed to get through it.

Pauline B

 

[tripleace]

A serious word of warning

I tried to enter a posting on this site, it apperas it will not allow any further email to be sent to it. they are bounced back.

Is this site a con and a personal page to attack individuals,

Kim can you look at this and remove link if I am right?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: however, burning bridges...

I'm glad you pulled through, Pauline. I've had customers go bankrupt on me over the years but luckily the amounts involved have'nt put my company at risk. In each case, the companies concerned, I found out later, were run by serial bankrupts who made a habit of it. In one case, the person concerned had been a director of 26 failed companies. He was later banned from being a company director by the Dti but he is still operating companies today but with family members as directors
The problem we seem to have in the UK is striking a balance between giving another chance to people who've been bankrupted through no fault of their own and those bastards who make a career out of it

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: however, burning bridges...

I think many people dont realise what they're doing when they sign a head lease on a property in terms of liability for rent even if they sell the lease on to somebody else

 

[Guest]

Re: changed now...

I *think* that new leases don't have the same terms, and/or insurance available quite cheap tho in buying an old one...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: changed now...

Didnt know about insurance but I think it's still quite common