well you cant have a race forum without a chat about handicaps, can you

[Birdseye]

So shall we start with the inadequacies of the NHC system. As I see it, its based on a very simplistic VPP, maybe even the IRC one with several factors removed, and it makes no allowance for the huge variation in the boats that will use it. IRC works because by definition the boats that use it are race boats and mostly fin keeled bermudan rigged lightweight sloops. But NHC boats are as likely to be bilgies as fin. Could be heavy or light, spinny or none, three blade or folder, full of cruising gear or emptied out and above all sailed by families or by racing crews. Many of these variables cant be allowed for but NHC base numbers dont allow for any of them. The result is that a boat starting on a base number, particularly in a fleet who already have adjusted numbers, will either be a no hoper or a bandit.

Seems to me that NHC needs to adopt the adustments to standard the old PY used to have.

 

[flaming]

IRC works

Now you've started it.... Plenty that would take issue with that!

 

[lpdsn]

Now you've started it.... Plenty that would take issue with that!

IRC sort of works for mid range cruiser racers (providing there's no J-Boats in the fleet and none have been measured in France ).

I thought you'd be OK on an Elan. Try racing a lightweight boat.

Meanwhile, just to try to add more than one bit of controversy to a single post, I thought NHC was based on ECHO. ECHO does seem to encourage participation. In theory it rewards improvement. If dual scored with IRC it can lead people on to decent racing, once the realise an IRC victory is harder earned. I've used it myself in the early stages to encourage crews I was training up, but sooner or later you have to tell them to forget ECHO and focus on the IRC or OD results.

The big problem with ECHO is that it does encourage mediocrity. A fleet can plateau at quite a low level as they each take turns at winning without having to strive too hard to improve. The lack of sailing ability I've seen amongst ECHO fleets when the wind gets up a bit can be quite frightening.

And worst of all, it is easy to cheat by massaging the ECHO handicap. Just skip the club races leading up to a big event and lo and behold you have a favourable handicap. Sadly, quite a few skippers do that.

 

[flaming]

IRC sort of works for mid range cruiser racers (providing there's no J-Boats in the fleet and none have been measured in France ).

I thought you'd be OK on an Elan. Try racing a lightweight boat.

We do quite well, but I'm well aware of the issues surrounding the lightweight boats. Pretty sure the Elan would be something much lighter and faster if there was any hope of being competitive.

I actually even think IRC works pretty well for all fleets of similar boats - so it's fine rating lightweight flyers against other lightweight flyers, and it's fine rating cruiser racers against each other, and it's fine rating custom race boats of the Corby / Mills ilk against each other. It's no good when the 3 meet though! Though giving them their due that's an almost impossible task, especially with a one number system trying to rate a boat that goes 7 knots downwind in 12kts, and 15 knots in 15 against a boat that does 7 and 8 respectively!

My gripe about IRC is not actually the way the rule measures the boats so much as the way it's administered (and specifically how that's stuck in the 80s) but that's really a topic for its own thread.

 

[Kerenza]

Mixed Handicap racing is for mugs, literally and otherwise. But it's all most of have got access to, so we have to persevere. Just done a series in IRC and despite some good performances came consistently last on handicap. In fact tied up, tidied up and in the bar before the last boat got in recently and still lost to them by several minutes..
Can't afford to let the crew become disappointed so perhaps back to NHC next series.
Dual scoring as encouraged by RYA anyone?

 

[lpdsn]

I actually even think IRC works pretty well for all fleets of similar boats - so it's fine rating lightweight flyers against other lightweight flyers, and it's fine rating cruiser racers against each other, and it's fine rating custom race boats of the Corby / Mills ilk against each other. It's no good when the 3 meet though! Though giving them their due that's an almost impossible task, especially with a one number system trying to rate a boat that goes 7 knots downwind in 12kts, and 15 knots in 15 against a boat that does 7 and 8 respectively!

Mazybe dividing fleets up by type would be a solution, if only fleets were bigger.

Even worse with stripped out racers, there are huge differences because of 'mock' cruiser features on some boats that have nothing to do with their performance characteristics.

My gripe about IRC is not actually the way the rule measures the boats so much as the way it's administered (and specifically how that's stuck in the 80s) but that's really a topic for its own thread.

Ah, the two men and their spreadsheet approach.

 

[lpdsn]

Mixed Handicap racing is for mugs, literally and otherwise. But it's all most of have got access to, so we have to persevere. Just done a series in IRC and despite some good performances came consistently last on handicap. In fact tied up, tidied up and in the bar before the last boat got in recently and still lost to them by several minutes..
Can't afford to let the crew become disappointed so perhaps back to NHC next series.
Dual scoring as encouraged by RYA anyone?

You must have a very different boat to them. If you can find somewhere to race with a bigger fleet where you're more likely to meet similar boats it might help.

 

[Kerenza]

You must have a very different boat to them. If you can find somewhere to race with a bigger fleet where you're more likely to meet similar boats it might help.

Nothing to do with size of fleet, it's the wide range of handicaps in the fleet which spoil it.
As an aside got the cruising sails back on this weekend and the boat is transformed. Trouble is irc handicap goes up from 1052 to 1068 or more.
NHC definitely works better for me, but local racing considers IRC to be the fast fleet and NHC the slow fleet, with corrospondingly different courses.

 

[lpdsn]

Nothing to do with size of fleet, it's the wide range of handicaps in the fleet which spoil it.
As an aside got the cruising sails back on this weekend and the boat is transformed. Trouble is irc handicap goes up from 1052 to 1068 or more.
NHC definitely works better for me, but local racing considers IRC to be the fast fleet and NHC the slow fleet, with corrospondingly different courses.

It's normal to split boats into classes with a narrower range of handicaps, so it sounds like the fleet isn't big enough for that.

It sounds like it's a fair sized cruiser you have. Are you saying she sails better with the cruising sails rather than racing sails? NHC is a retrograde step and it would be better to put the effort into trying to improve your performance under IRC.

 

[flaming]

It's normal to split boats into classes with a narrower range of handicaps, so it sounds like the fleet isn't big enough for that.

It sounds like it's a fair sized cruiser you have. Are you saying she sails better with the cruising sails rather than racing sails? NHC is a retrograde step and it would be better to put the effort into trying to improve your performance under IRC.

I'm guessing the cruising sails are an overlapping jib. IRC hates them, massive rating penalty, very rarely worth it except in very light wind venues. Certainly average conditions in the Solent means every competitive boat has ditched them.

 

[Birdseye]

The objective of the NHC handicap is to allow family crews in family cruisers to have a race with of course the chat etc that goes on in the bar afterwards. Its only semi serious and thats reflected in the collection of old tore outs that you see i9n our races. Not a carbon sail in sight and from the last time I did OOD in the bay, not a weed free bottom either. Now approach might be anathema to the serious racers like Flaming but it is in many areas a great deal more popular than IRC. Which apparently is one reason why IRC cooperated in the drawing up of the system, in the hope that in the due course of time it would encourage more to join dwindling IRC fleets.

Problem is its badly drafted and over simplified. The starter numbers arent near enough to reality because the calculations are too simplified. So a fleet has to run for a while and not to have new members joining before the calculated end results really come close together. But when they do reach that point, then there are real rewards for the crew who try to improve - I have won and lost races by 2 secs on corrected time in a 2 hour race.

 

[Birdseye]

It's normal to split boats into classes with a narrower range of handicaps, so it sounds like the fleet isn't big enough for that.

It sounds like it's a fair sized cruiser you have. Are you saying she sails better with the cruising sails rather than racing sails? NHC is a retrograde step and it would be better to put the effort into trying to improve your performance under IRC.

We have a situation just like this at our club. The sailor concerned has bought himself a big Bav Match with an IRC number higher than anything else in the IRC fleet inc all the Js, sportsboats etc . Sailing with a variable crew and against the practiced hard core racers we have, he doesnt do that well. But put him in the NHC fleet and he is sailing against 24 ft 1970s bilge keelers with husband and wife on board and a TCC in the 0.78/0.8 region. No handicap system will sort out that level of difference so he doesnt fit in there either. The result is one unhappy racer. Its a pity because he's a nice guy and its a a lovely boat , but IMO he has bought the wrong boat if he wants enjoyable racing at our club. In such a situation you ideally need to buy a boat that fits in with the others in the fleet you want to join just as you suggest..

The only true unbiased racing id OD - we all know that. As you get further away from identical boats you have an ever wider gap for the handicap system to close.

 

[Alan_B]

We use a modified version of ECHO in our club.

Two fleets, white sail and spinnaker. Each boat is handicapped against a scratch boat in their fleet. The scratch boat is one that sails often and is consistent in their performance. We are currently trying to tweak the system as handicaps used to be adjusted using a 10 race average, which we changed to 5. Using 5 races gives a big jump so now we could move to taking 75% old HC + 25% of new to smooth things out a bit. Cup Races are sailed to ECHO standards with a 0.020 drop for whitesail boats.

Are handicaps a big bug bear in every sailing club?

 

[Birdseye]

Handicap's a big bugbear? Well lets put it this way. When nhc was introduced every single member of our club racing fleet reconned it disadvantaged them compared to the rest

 

[flaming]

Handicap's a big bugbear? Well lets put it this way. When nhc was introduced every single member of our club racing fleet reconned it disadvantaged them compared to the rest

Yep! It always amuses me people saying their IRC handicap is wrong, and it should be 3 points less. Then you work out that over the series it would have had to be 30 points less to make any difference in their overall standing.

 

[Birdseye]

People just dont like change and its even worse if understanding the change involves some simple maths. You can thank our education syster for that.

 

[Kerenza]

We have a situation just like this at our club. The sailor concerned has bought himself a big Bav Match with an IRC number higher than anything else in the IRC fleet inc all the Js, sportsboats etc . Sailing with a variable crew and against the practiced hard core racers we have, he doesnt do that well. But put him in the NHC fleet and he is sailing against 24 ft 1970s bilge keelers with husband and wife on board and a TCC in the 0.78/0.8 region. No handicap system will sort out that level of difference so he doesnt fit in there either. The result is one unhappy racer. Its a pity because he's a nice guy and its a a lovely boat , but IMO he has bought the wrong boat if he wants enjoyable racing at our club. In such a situation you ideally need to buy a boat that fits in with the others in the fleet you want to join just as you suggest..

The only true unbiased racing id OD - we all know that. As you get further away from identical boats you have an ever wider gap for the handicap system to close.

Some truth in what you say, but the boat was bought for one purpose, fast cruising, which it does fantastically with my wife and I alone or even better my son and daughter in law in addition.
Witness the 40 knt squall we encountered last Sunday which caused damage to three other yachts we were in company with, but partly due to race prep and partly our speed and thus exposure time we were unscathed.
I have a fast cruiser, I previously raced on other boats, several people persuaded me to enter then club pressurised me into IRC.
We race with anyone who fancies a trip, sometimes not enough bodies to put up the kite safely, it's always in cruising trim with two tanks of water and 150lt. Diesel., just smaller racing sails.
If we're not NHC who is?

 

[Yacht Yogi]

The only way to avoid ratings gripes is to join a one-design fleet. You'll also get the best boat-on-boat racing and a true measure of your own performance. Obviously a compromise on your "dream boat" choice but if you want to enjoy racing then get an Impala, Sigma 38, J-yacht of some sort or whatever's got a fleet in your area.

 

[DJE]

As you get further away from identical boats you have an ever wider gap for the handicap system to close.

In a diverse fleet handicap results depend as much on the weather as on anything else.

 

[rob2]

It goes further than weather affects. Sure, wind strength on the day will favour some boats over others depending on where the designs' strengths lie. It will also affect sea state and that will suit some boats and not others. Likewise in tidal waters the timing of tides against the course set can be more critical than any other factor. Probably the most well known example is the RTIR where the length of the course favours the Folkboat so long as there's a reasonable breeze - they get the best of the tides as they don't arrive too early and have to plug into the main flow as they re-enter the Solent. I've watched races where the courses were set to suit the fastest boats and those trailing behind would often retire as they met a changed tide (after the favourites had finished) and couldn't make any further progress toward the finish line! No handicap could ever deal with all these variables for each set of race conditions and the only one that can be manipulated is to select the course to suit the conditions on the day to suit the mid point of the handicaps racing in each class.

Rob.