Nick_H
Active member
Well i've learnt a lot from this thread. Most importantly i've learnt never to sell anything to Gludy ..
Waterbuoy
- Thread starter nicho
- Start date
Gludy
Active member
So when i point out incorrect claims on a product based upon sound, simple, basic physics I am in thw wrong for being too fussy?
Maybe some prefer to be left in the world of beleiving illusions? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Maybe some prefer to be left in the world of beleiving illusions? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Nick_H
Active member
I'm just saying that a lot of people wouldn't have felt the need to calculate the volume of a can of mushy peas, that's all ..
Gludy
Active member
I have to agree with that - the vast majority would not be bothered to do so in order to prove some simple physics to those who were not accepting them.
Then most people would not be bothered about the misleading demo in the first place and would be content to leave the public being fooled into thinking something that was not true.
I really do not take this matter in other than a ligh hearted way ....... just missing a boat! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Then most people would not be bothered about the misleading demo in the first place and would be content to leave the public being fooled into thinking something that was not true.
I really do not take this matter in other than a ligh hearted way ....... just missing a boat! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
cortez
New member
I suppose this might be a little bit off the discussion but here goes.
If you had a fish tank weighing 200 lbs, and then added a fish weighing 25lbs,would the tank weigh 225lbs,keeping in mind the fish is floating.
If you had a fish tank weighing 200 lbs, and then added a fish weighing 25lbs,would the tank weigh 225lbs,keeping in mind the fish is floating.
Hurricane
Well-known member
I've just got one thing to add
EUREKA
EUREKA
Gludy
Active member
[ QUOTE ]
I suppose this might be a little bit off the discussion but here goes.
If you had a fish tank weighing 200 lbs, and then added a fish weighing 25lbs,would the tank weigh 225lbs,keeping in mind the fish is floating.
[/ QUOTE ]
A fish is about the same demsity as water - its basically near enough weightless in water.
So when you add the fish to the water the water rises by the volume of the fish = the fish is weightless BUT the whole lot increases in weight to 225lbs. You might just as well have added 25 lbs of water!
Please .... please nobody disagree with that.
Here is a question - I have my boat in a lake and it has half filled with water. I switch on my bilge pumps and pump all the water out - does the water in the lake rise or fall? Archi has the answer - just intersetd to see how his principles are appled after this long physics lesson /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I suppose this might be a little bit off the discussion but here goes.
If you had a fish tank weighing 200 lbs, and then added a fish weighing 25lbs,would the tank weigh 225lbs,keeping in mind the fish is floating.
[/ QUOTE ]
A fish is about the same demsity as water - its basically near enough weightless in water.
So when you add the fish to the water the water rises by the volume of the fish = the fish is weightless BUT the whole lot increases in weight to 225lbs. You might just as well have added 25 lbs of water!
Please .... please nobody disagree with that.
Here is a question - I have my boat in a lake and it has half filled with water. I switch on my bilge pumps and pump all the water out - does the water in the lake rise or fall? Archi has the answer - just intersetd to see how his principles are appled after this long physics lesson /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sundays_Child
New member
It stays the same?
What a fun thread! Gludy, you're so patient. My head would have exlploded about half way down!
gjgm: Eureka! hahaha. Excellent.
What a fun thread! Gludy, you're so patient. My head would have exlploded about half way down!
gjgm: Eureka! hahaha. Excellent.
gjgm
Active member
I think the answer depends on whether the lake is in Devon or Cornwall, doesnt it?
andyball
New member
[ QUOTE ]
I have my boat in a lake and it has half filled with water.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hydraulic oil, surely? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
I have my boat in a lake and it has half filled with water.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hydraulic oil, surely? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Gludy
Active member
Yes of course in the rest of the world it stays the same but in Devon it continues to rise no matter what you take out or put in /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
If the boat was a Trader then yes Andy you would be pumping hydraulic oil instead of water - the water would be kept to used within the hydraulic system. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As for giving in ..... I do not know how to do that as Trader found out. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think there is a direct correlation between my typos and my frustration.
Many in the fishing world do not understand that when they catch a 10 lbs trout in water it weighs the same as a 1lb trout but just has more swimming power. Most fly fishing rods cannot lift an 8 oz weight of the floor but they can bring in a 20 lbs fish- when the fish needs to be lifted from the water they use a landing net. This is the same thing, the rod only has to deal with a very reduced pulling power because the fish is in water just as the water buoy has to only deal with the negative buoyancy of an object nots its weight in air.
In practice the other factors that change the required pulling power are the shape of the object, the current in the water, the stickiness of the bottom, the depth at which the waterbuoy triggers, the negative buoyancy of waterbuoy itself etc.,These factors mean that it is probable that about 50% more pulling power is required than that calculated by the negative buoyancy of object being lifted.
I only hope that the thread has prevented the myth being repeated in the boating press but I am sure that the hook will be swallowed in other press and the impression given that the device can lift a kilo of anything. In fact in their opening presentation on the Waterbuoy site it states it can lift a kilo without any qualification.
If the boat was a Trader then yes Andy you would be pumping hydraulic oil instead of water - the water would be kept to used within the hydraulic system. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
As for giving in ..... I do not know how to do that as Trader found out. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I think there is a direct correlation between my typos and my frustration.
Many in the fishing world do not understand that when they catch a 10 lbs trout in water it weighs the same as a 1lb trout but just has more swimming power. Most fly fishing rods cannot lift an 8 oz weight of the floor but they can bring in a 20 lbs fish- when the fish needs to be lifted from the water they use a landing net. This is the same thing, the rod only has to deal with a very reduced pulling power because the fish is in water just as the water buoy has to only deal with the negative buoyancy of an object nots its weight in air.
In practice the other factors that change the required pulling power are the shape of the object, the current in the water, the stickiness of the bottom, the depth at which the waterbuoy triggers, the negative buoyancy of waterbuoy itself etc.,These factors mean that it is probable that about 50% more pulling power is required than that calculated by the negative buoyancy of object being lifted.
I only hope that the thread has prevented the myth being repeated in the boating press but I am sure that the hook will be swallowed in other press and the impression given that the device can lift a kilo of anything. In fact in their opening presentation on the Waterbuoy site it states it can lift a kilo without any qualification.
thefatlady
Well-known member
Just come upon this thread and I am staggered by the lengths you had to go to to present this most basic of concepts.
What this thread does do is to lower still further my already low opinion of the business people in the Dragon's Den.
What this thread does do is to lower still further my already low opinion of the business people in the Dragon's Den.
Gludy
Active member
I have to make business judgements from time to time not dissimilar to those in Dragons den. In fact my son, who is a more successful businessman than I, recently gave a talk about business alongside Duncan from Dragons Den.
Maybe its edited out but I do not see basic questions being ask,
For example nobody asked Waterbouy how much they sell for. Nobody really probed how exclusive they were. Having taken out dozens of patents myself I find it interesting that the Waterbouy site claims lots of patents but does not list or detail one patent number. Patents pending are of course not the same. Certainly the product itself with a balloon filled by gas, triggered by water is not new – there are products on the market that do just that.
In this case having just watched the demo again
Click for Video Here I am still amazed at how they got away with such a large kilo weight and flew in the face of old Archimedes. The balloon took a long time to react – some ten seconds by which time the depth would have increased the pressure a fair amount causing even more problems.
My view of the business is that at £13 the item is too expensive.
The item will probably work fine with keys etc but needs to modify its claims about being used to life heavy items – he even claims it can be extended to trigger life jackets and even lift boats!
The item could be successful but only if the price is sub a fiver and even then it will always be a small business.
Put alongside the USA product for £3.50, whilst it sells for £13 and actually giving the true lifting capacity would mean that, as it stands, it is basically a non-starter,
Maybe its edited out but I do not see basic questions being ask,
For example nobody asked Waterbouy how much they sell for. Nobody really probed how exclusive they were. Having taken out dozens of patents myself I find it interesting that the Waterbouy site claims lots of patents but does not list or detail one patent number. Patents pending are of course not the same. Certainly the product itself with a balloon filled by gas, triggered by water is not new – there are products on the market that do just that.
In this case having just watched the demo again
Click for Video Here I am still amazed at how they got away with such a large kilo weight and flew in the face of old Archimedes. The balloon took a long time to react – some ten seconds by which time the depth would have increased the pressure a fair amount causing even more problems.
My view of the business is that at £13 the item is too expensive.
The item will probably work fine with keys etc but needs to modify its claims about being used to life heavy items – he even claims it can be extended to trigger life jackets and even lift boats!
The item could be successful but only if the price is sub a fiver and even then it will always be a small business.
Put alongside the USA product for £3.50, whilst it sells for £13 and actually giving the true lifting capacity would mean that, as it stands, it is basically a non-starter,
fisherman
Well-known member
Notice he claimed that the lifejacket industry has only one trigger mechanism. Two:- hydrostatic or soluble tablet surely?
thefatlady
Well-known member
I've just watched most of the video. My impressions?
James Whatsisname is a conman.
The Dragons are arrogant, self-opinionated and lacking in any ability to assess the product itself. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that none of them has ever created anything - they've made money from marketing entertainment and other people's already proven products (mobile phones, etc.). Didn't one of them go heavily bust - Red Letter Days? Not knocking the making money bit, but that alone doesn't qualify them to judge business propositions.
Having said that, this programme is designed as entertainment and I find it difficult to believe that anyone would commit to invest on the basis of that charade. If there was not a lot of off-stage rehearsal and investigation, then these guys are nuts.
James Whatsisname is a conman.
The Dragons are arrogant, self-opinionated and lacking in any ability to assess the product itself. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that none of them has ever created anything - they've made money from marketing entertainment and other people's already proven products (mobile phones, etc.). Didn't one of them go heavily bust - Red Letter Days? Not knocking the making money bit, but that alone doesn't qualify them to judge business propositions.
Having said that, this programme is designed as entertainment and I find it difficult to believe that anyone would commit to invest on the basis of that charade. If there was not a lot of off-stage rehearsal and investigation, then these guys are nuts.
Gludy
Active member
I like the way it is claimed that he drops the 1 kilo weight in slow so that he does not crack the tank. Had it been dropped in fast, it would have slowed down anyway and maybe become more obvious that it was a low density block with a lot of lift.
In year 3 he reckons on £3.7m sales at say £5 trade (retail £13 inc VAT) that equates to selling 740,000 units per annum!
In year 3 he reckons on £3.7m sales at say £5 trade (retail £13 inc VAT) that equates to selling 740,000 units per annum!
adey
Member
I wonder how salty the water in his test tank was? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Sundays_Child
New member
A total con.
Agree... few keys, fine, Anything more, no chance.
I'd love to strap my waterproof Canon bins to it (less than 1kg, lots of air in them) and video it.
By year 3 the product's reputation would be in tatters based on real-life experiences.
No way I'd invest a penny.
And yes, small business at best.
Agree... few keys, fine, Anything more, no chance.
I'd love to strap my waterproof Canon bins to it (less than 1kg, lots of air in them) and video it.
By year 3 the product's reputation would be in tatters based on real-life experiences.
No way I'd invest a penny.
And yes, small business at best.
Take5
New member
[ QUOTE ]
Didn't one of them go heavily bust - Red Letter Days?
[/ QUOTE ]
It did go under but it was rescued by Theo Paphitis and Peter Jones of the Dragons Den.
The lady who started it originally was indeed a Dragon in a past series. Her name was Rachel Elnaugh.
Didn't one of them go heavily bust - Red Letter Days?
[/ QUOTE ]
It did go under but it was rescued by Theo Paphitis and Peter Jones of the Dragons Den.
The lady who started it originally was indeed a Dragon in a past series. Her name was Rachel Elnaugh.
Meem513
New member
Since the point is indeed - easier retrieval of keys dropped in the water, I would use yet another floating item on my KC along w/ the waterbuoy to contract any & truth in adverts and "math issues"...
Attaching keys to a belt loop, pocket with a clip works as well.
http://www.promogiftsuk.co.uk/products/keychains-and-fobs/karabiners
Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see ~ E. A. Poe
Attaching keys to a belt loop, pocket with a clip works as well.
http://www.promogiftsuk.co.uk/products/keychains-and-fobs/karabiners
Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see ~ E. A. Poe