Warrior 35, Bruce Roberts or something else?

[wayneA]

THE BACKGROUND

SWMBO and I are now committed to throwing in the towel and sailing off into the sunset. We are planning to depart in 2007, but to be honest will go as soon as we are comfortably ready, which maybe in a couple of years. The idea is a circumnavigation, starting with a few years in the Med.

With this in mind, we have come to the view that our current boat, a seacracker 33, is not the right one for the job. Although a very seaworthy, comfortable boat, its narrow beam and low freeboard make the accommodation to small for us as a long term liveaboard.

SO THE AGE OLD QUESTION – WHAT BOAT?

My going in criteria would be a long keel, 32 to 40ft LOA, cutter, moderate/heavy displacement, moderate beam, 3 cabins and separate heads. Must be a good sail cruiser, not a motorsailer, as I intend to do more sailing than motoring (don’t laugh like that ;-) – It doesn’t need to be fast, but also doesn’t need F4+ to get moving! Budget for purchase is 50K. Ideally would like to pick up a boat already fitted for bluewater, windvane fitted etc.

I’ve done the Pacific seacraft, Island Packet, Rustler and Vancouver thing, but sadly the good ones are way outside my budget. Rivals and Nic’s, although good classic cruisers, seem to be overpriced for their age and what they are.

The 2 boats I seem drawn to are the Warrior 35 and Bruce Roberts range of steel cruisers.

My main concern with the Warrior is performance. It seems heavy for it’s sail plan, and is more like a motorsailer. I have never sailed one, just looked at reference, so this maybe total crap. Also SWMBO doesn’t like the idea of the aft cabin separated from main saloon – and nipping across the cockpit in her underpants to get to the loo! Are there any other vices with the Warrior?

I do not know a lot about Bruce Roberts, or steel yachts for that matter. I have seen a custom steel yacht that I really liked. I was told that it was similar to a Bruce Roberts – hence my initial interest in them.

Have done some research, but would be interested in any comments/advice about either boat or suggestions on others that would be worth looking at.

Many Thanks in advance

Wayne

 

[Stingo]

I've heard that there is a HUGE choice of good cruising boats available in New Zealand. People get there and realise that they have three weeks of beating to get anywhere from NZ and so sell up at rock-bottom prices. Why not start you cruise there? If what I've heard is true, then your 50k budget goes much further

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you

 

[Chris_Robb]

Have a look at the Victory40/Trintella 4a although a motor sailer she is fast - heavyish at 13 tons all up. prices range from 50 to 80K, they give very good value. many have been in original owners hands since new. Avoid the home built ones, though I don't think there were many of those - all Tyler moulded and very very strong. _ I am slightly biased as I have one and wouldn't change for anything!

 

[AndrewB]

I considered both of these when planning to set out 7 years ago - and actually bought a steel Roberts, which we lived aboard for 3 years.

The Warrior 35 is well regarded. The hull is identical to the Voyager, but I've heard its performance is rather better. The deck house of the Voyager may be an advantage for sheltered Mediterranean sailing, but would be a liability for ocean voyaging. Like you, SWMBO did not like the separate stern cabin, but possibly with a decent boom cover over the cockpit the privacy problem could be overcome.

Some Roberts designs have great reputations as long distance cruising boats. Peter Keig's Roberts 38 Zeal is famous. But others may have a stability problem when built in steel - this can be a problem with steel generally. This is particularly true when the builder has departed from the plans to add extra height. Steel boats under 40' have to be rather cramped by comparison with a similar LOA GRP yacht. Always be wary of amateur builds.

Weight denotes strength and the loss of performance really isn't much of an issue for long-distance cruising. Steel is of course a particularly heavy material.

 

[MedMan]

We sail a Voyager 35 which has the same hull as the Warrior but with a pilot house. We love her and feel she is an ideal liveaboard boat for two, with reservations. There is also the Challenger 35 which has a conventinal aft cockpit.

The long keel all three 35s share makes them comfortable and secure in a seaway. They sail well in 12kn wind plus, preferable 15kn and really come into their own in 20kn plus when they will look after you long after you have stopped looking after yourself. They are well built, strong and hold their value well.

The downside of this is that they do not sail well in light airs, especially when loaded down with cruising gear. Their other vice shows itself as soon as you engage reverse! The wheel/tiller is purely ornamental astern, the direction being determined entirely by which way the bow blows off.

We think the pilot house on the Voyager is great. When we are inside we are still outside which is a great advantage in the autumn and spring. We can con her from below if it is wet using a remote for the autopilot - we removed the second wheel years ago. However, the huge windows would be a worry crossing oceans.

Good luck.



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[wayneA]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the post.

I did think of the Victory 40. As I currently own a seacracker 33/Trintella IIa, also moulded by Tylers, I know how strong they were built. I'm also a big fan of Van de Stadt's designs - Is the Victory a Van de Stadt? At the time I was not thinking about going for a ketch so discounted it - maybe I should think again?

Why do you like yours? What are the good/bad points? What's the performance relative to displacement like? I'd be really interseted in your point of view as an owner.

Cheers

Wayne

 

[wayneA]

Medman

Thanks for your post

I'm not that familiar with the Voyager's layout. I know it's the same hull as the Warrior with a different deck specification, but how many cabins does it have?

I guess with any moderate/heavy displacement cruiser, light wind sailing is always going to be an issue. How have you found it in the Med? Do you tend to motor more than sail due to light airs? Do you use any other sails with the Voyager for light wind, such as cruising cute or larger foresail/drifter?

Also - going astern (or not) when Med mooring against a key, do you just go bows-to? Any boat I buy would have to be long keel or atleast long fin and skeg, so going astern will always be an issue.

Any advice would be most welcome

Cheers

Wayne

BTW you have a great website and your book looks very interesting

 

[wayneA]

Andrew - Thanks for the post, good advice

Cheers

Wayne

 

[cp99]

Re: the ideal long-term cruiser...

Ready for the million and ninth opinion? OK. What about insurance? Most end up uninsured. This is a factor because if you get a steel boat, it´s a load off your mind since they will obviously survive incidents which will finish any other type of boat. There are many examples of this. If you like vd Stadt designs: their steel boats sail better than most. A Seal (Zeehond) 37 might be in your budget. There are lots in Holland and at least one for sale in the UK. For long-term cruising you will kick yourself if you don´t get some kind of pilot house / full-length sprayhood, etc. Open cockpits are strictly for racers or the local sailor who can choose his weather. When it´s baking hot, freezing cold, or nasty wet you´ll need a full cover. They seem to survive offshore, despite the fact that people who haven't tried it, worry about this. No-one in their right mind uses the old lay-ahull method for waiting out a storm anyway - at least after they´ve tried it once. Steel boat and BIG ground tackle, mate - the steel boat will carry the heavy gear easily. When solent marina sailors are laughing at the size of your ground tackle, it´s about right.

 

[MedMan]

The Voyager really only has two cabins. There is a V-berth in the forepeak which makes a huge double. We keep that made up as our berth. Coming aft, there is the heads/shower-room to port and a superb sea-berth to port that has a trotter-box under the main saloon settee. At least, it did! We put a a fuel tank into the trotter-box and turned the head end into a sail bin! Midships is the Voyager's crowning glory - the pilot house. It is raised up over the engine so you have a superb view all round. There is no stern cabin but there are three big cockpit lockers.

We do motor much more than we sail, but then so do most folk in the Med. 20% under sail is as good as it gets overall, though the average is much better in April and September than it is in July and August. We have a spinnaker with a snuffer that we use once or twice a year. We need a mile to put it up, a mile to take it down and 10 miles to make it worth while making the effort. We need the wind on the quarter, greater than 8 knots and less than 15kn. That's why its only once or twice a year! We have a 160% light-weather genoa that we use from time to time, especially if we haven't far to go.

You ask a good question about mooring stern/bows to. Before we left we fitted an anchorlina and a kedge anchor to the stern rail but it was just not man enough to moor bows to. We wanted to put stronger gear on the stern but the taff rail is very narrow and there just was not enough room. All the harbours in the Western Med have laid moorings so it is not a problem there but, as we moved east, we got quite concerned about how to solve the dilemma. Then we made a very interesting discovery the first time we attempted to moor stern-to - we could do it! Going astern with the anchor over the bow is possible whilst going astern without is not. Confused? As soon as the anchor is deployed we can control the bow and thus our direction. A cross wind actually helps. With the chain running out freely the bow blows off and the stern points up-wind allowing us to motor in that direction. As soon as we get too far upwind I call for the first-mate to check the chain and. lo and behold, the stem snaps back in line and we go straight back for a while. Repeated orders of 'run' and 'check' allow us to motor back in line.

Thanks for the comments about the website and book - much appreciated.

Good luck



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[BrendanS]

I knew there was a reason I frequented this place. Every once in a while someone posts a gem of practical experience we can all learn from. Thank you.

 

[wayneA]

Agreed - Thx Medman (NM)

Thx Medman

 

[Chris_Robb]

The Victory is a Van de Stadt design. Although a motor sailer - once the wind is over 12knot apparent - she begins to move quite well. I have done reacheing passages when we have averaged 8 knots and passed other boat struggling to keep a straight course.

We had a late November trip to Cherbourg a few years back - easterly gale blew up on the way back to Chichester motor sailed at 7 knots into a vile short sea and were back at our normal time.

When I bouht the boat, the Dutch surveyor said that this is one of the few boats you will alwasy make it to your destination what ever the weather - on time!

Light winds down wind, you really do need a spinaker, but she is no directionally stable, you only need 2 crew to handle it.

What I like - Covered cockpit - never have to put oilies on. Steers herself, is fast when the wind is up, Plenty of space - comfortable. The more experiance I get on her - the more I appreciate the design.

Like all long keeled boats, you need to learn how to handle her in a marina - difficult to start with, but I now have no problems, and I would never cheat by fitting a bow thruster.

Rig - I would have preferred a cutter rig - you will find the latest version (known as the 42 - has a small bowsprit - and a walk through from the saloon to the aft cabin. The result is an over cramped interior.

Best stern cabin in the business - you wake up in the morning and can see alround out of the large stern windows.

Good tankage for both Fuel and water - plenty of room to add holding tanks -

Engine and tank installation built to commercial standards.

Build quality of victories good but crude - mine was built at Frank Halls boatyard in Walton on Naze - Overall - professionallly built boats are probably better than any Halberg - and your not paying for the name.

In short - I wouldn't change here for anything.

 

[Caronia]

Wayne .. Could I suggest you reconsider on the Nicholson's, like yourself we were looking at the Warrior 35 as we needed a third cabin. After much searching we came to the conclusion that the Warrior 35 was just that little too small. The Nicholson 38, which we eventually purchased has a third cabin complete with it's own head which prevents the half-clad dash through the cockpit. it's sails well albeit requires a bit of wind, has plenty of space for storage and they are available on the market within your price range and at a similar price to similarly equipped Warriors. A further, indefinable benefit is the pride you feel when you reply Nicholson to the enquiry about the make of your yacht.

 

[warrior40]

if you want a fast boat, why go for heavy displacement?

 

[warrior40]

If you want good sailing with a good ballast ratio, with your budget I may consider a Sadler 34 or an Oyster 37.

 

[LadyInBed]

Re: Walk through aft cabin

Pilot house Colvic Countess (33 35 37) have a good layout with a walk through aft cabin and a variety of rigs. I think mine is great (but doesn't everyone say that)?

 

[wayneA]

Thx Chris

Thanks for the input Chris. I will certainly have a look at a few Victories.

Cheers

Wayne

 

[Chris_Robb]

Re: Thx Chris

When you do any searches - try Trintella as well
One for sale on east coast- http://www.woodrolfe.com/wood2910.htm

This one is at a high price and is one of the worst presented examples I have ever seen. - been round the world - nothing wrong with that - but unloved by its 3 owners, probably nothing that a bit of hard work won't put right. Joinery - although professionally built is crap. This is a walk thru version -

You need to look at both crap and good boats - so that so know when you found the good one.

Also try broker Alan Borden in Poole who specialises in these. tel 01202 741911

 

[wayneA]

As I said, not after a 'fast' boat, but a moderate/heavy displacement that has a sail plan that doesn't need more than a F4 to get it moving.

Just something that is more a crusier than motorsailor. My concern with the Warrior 35 is that on paper the sail plan looks small, therefore more of a motorsailor.

Cheers

Wayne

BTW thx for the post.