Volvo Penta D3 190 limp mode / fault gremlins. Please help!

[GooseGas]

Hi all,
We’ve had a shocking 6 months with our D3s. Would love some thoughts.

Both engines wouldn’t make it up to plane. Perform fine up to 2000rpm and 50-60 boost pressure. Both engines ‘let go’ and fault with turbo actuator or VNT valve faults. We could move the vanes by hand. Everything moving and free.

Replaced both VNT valves. No change. Decided to give it a birthday.

Pulled out both engines:
- new turbos
- new harnesses both sides
- new couplings
- intercoolers cleaned out
- fuel filters changed
- fuel lines checked
- full servicing
- both legs serviced

$40k plus bill.

Sea trial today. Same result. F&%#*k.

Both engines into limp mode, run up fine to 2000-2100rpm then just won’t build pressure past 50/60. Won’t plane. Both throw up turbo actuator faults at the same time.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Feeling pretty gutted after spending a lot, for no result.

 

[simonfraser]

Who advised all that work with a turbo activator code fault ?

 

[GooseGas]

The original fault was VNT valve, which we changed with no improvement. Which lead us to electrical harnesses that were in a bad way. It meant pulling the engines so whilst they were out, it made sense to address anything else that needed attention.

To answer your question. Our local marine engineers advised it. Hindsight and all that, trying to remain positive, once we find the gremlin (and shoot it) the engines have had a full overhaul.

 

[luke collins]

Is it a common fuel tank?

 

[GooseGas]

Is it a common fuel tank?

 

[GooseGas]

Port and starboard tanks that are linked. Good Racor filters. We’ve sea trialled it with jerry cans of fresh diesel feeding the engines with same result.

 

[SC35]

Quote from Andyroonot, who knows about these things:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whats actually happening? Are you getting fault codes or is it just not performing? The most common problem (well, the only problem!) I have found with D3 turbos is the actuator arm (on the aft end of the turbo of it) if it doesn't move down - when the turbo is required & doesn't respond correctly/quickly enough by varying the vane angles (via that actuator arm & a small mechanical vacuum pump), the control system will put it into limp home mode. If it is happening periodically you may be able to save it, you just need to lubricate the arm and mechanism & ensure it moves all the way down reasonably freely - it should move as far down as the lowest part of the threaded section.

As I said, it should move reasonably freely (you'll need to put some weight behind it) but I had one not so long back that barely moved at all, this was removed from the boat & opened up, the collar inside that varies the vanes was seized solid & was freed up, after a couple of runs up & down the river the problem was sorted - regular lubrication advised for the future (its in the maintenance schedule I think). Although light running isn't going to help, we've found that sucking in salty air is the main cause!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[GooseGas]

Quote from Andyroonot, who knows about these things:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whats actually happening? Are you getting fault codes or is it just not performing? The most common problem (well, the only problem!) I have found with D3 turbos is the actuator arm (on the aft end of the turbo of it) if it doesn't move down - when the turbo is required & doesn't respond correctly/quickly enough by varying the vane angles (via that actuator arm & a small mechanical vacuum pump), the control system will put it into limp home mode. If it is happening periodically you may be able to save it, you just need to lubricate the arm and mechanism & ensure it moves all the way down reasonably freely - it should move as far down as the lowest part of the threaded section.

As I said, it should move reasonably freely (you'll need to put some weight behind it) but I had one not so long back that barely moved at all, this was removed from the boat & opened up, the collar inside that varies the vanes was seized solid & was freed up, after a couple of runs up & down the river the problem was sorted - regular lubrication advised for the future (its in the maintenance schedule I think). Although light running isn't going to help, we've found that sucking in salty air is the main cause!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes initial problems started and showed faults on both sides indicating VNT valves.

Replaced the VNT valve on port, and got some result. Switched new VNT valve to starboard, same result.

Which had us move to electrical harnesses which were in bad shape.

The annoying part is with all the work done the fault is now showing Turbo Actuator which is vacuum operated so how does it even know? Plus both turbos are brand new….

2009 D3s with 800 hours. Otherwise is good condition, always run at 3100 apart from a 5 min motor out of the marina at 5 knots.

 

[GooseGas]

Something to note. This only happens under load. We can’t replicate it in the slip. Engines happily run at 3200rpm.

 

[SC35]

Were the boost pressure sensors checked out?

Were parts 3.) and 5.) both replaced?

 

[GooseGas]

Were the boost pressure sensors checked out?

Were parts 3.) and 5.) both replaced?



View attachment 157119

I’ll check with the engineers. Unsure. Would those parts come with a turbo replacement? Weird for them to both fail at the same time?

 

[GooseGas]

Update:

Had both engines re-config’d and sea trial this morning. Same result, but no faults. Normal operation up to 2000rpm boost comes up normally 10-20-30-40-50-60, jumps to 100 then backs off to 50 and holds….throttles wide open.

Tried OEM activated, even deactivated the trim assist (as they are across the ECU) same results.

No smoke, no missing, nothing. Doing my head in!

 

[Portofino]

Sounds like a control problem .The ECU (s) are not recognising the load .The loads the amount of fuel ratio of demand / given .There will be a sensor usually on one or more injectors .It’s not the sensor per se because that should throw up its own code .
Without that info it’s not actuating the turbo actuators .Hence it revs at the dock , but unable under load .

Assume all the pins of the connectors have been checked ? Thinking bad gnd somewhere ?
Also I am assuming the battery voltage and alternator output is correct ? You have not mentioned those .A voltage drop may throw the ECU (s) = cause an aberration.

Or as SC 35 says post # 10 it’s the vacuum pump kit or part there of , it’s connections etc what ever controls the variable vanes .Check for leaky vacuum.Seals pipes , valves etc .

Can you see the actuator arms freely moving at the transition from 2000 rpm upwards under load attempting getting up on the plane ? If all that gear has been replaced can you manually move the actuator arms ( engines off ) .



Finally does any of the new parts thinking electrical mostly,need coding to the ECU (s) ? If so does the tech require the correct Vodia tool fully subscribed and thus up dated ?

 

[jrudge]

Port and starboard tanks that are linked. Good Racor filters. We’ve sea trialled it with jerry cans of fresh diesel feeding the engines with same result.

How was this rigged ? If taking directly from a can it would last seconds due to the return fuel flow.

Given both are doing the same thing at the same time some sort of collapse in a fuel line under load would seem plausible.

What does vodia say ?

 

[Portofino]

The issue here is wasn’t an original diagnosis.
Initially with variable vane tech + marine environment = ceased / stuck vanes.

But the the op says in post #1 “ . We could move the vanes by hand. Everything moving and free.“

So that excludes the physical parts in my book .

Since then it appears to have been a parts throwing fest if iam honest from what I have read .

I get the “ while it’s out “ ( engines removed ) let’s do this that and other ……but as I said without any diagnosis it’s just blind parts replacement.
Which is where we are now .

The interesting thing is the fact they faulted simultaneously with apparently the same issue .
So fuel ….which has been gone through.Which is where J rudge is , rightfully questioning btw .

Voltage / electrotwackery issues …relate to ECU management which hasn’t been looked at except physical replacement of the harness / looms .

We need to scroll right back now to the time before , the lead up to the faults .
Was it left unused ? How long ? Was it on a charger ? What state are the batts , was it inadvertently fired up on a faulty charger and the combined shore power + its own alternator supply kicking in has blown something in an ECU ? = the bit that reads the load and controls boost ( I know it seems vacuum operated ) but we have to go back to when it was last used fully working understand this …..and find what’s changed = go from there .

edit - Would boost pressure sensors if faulty prevent fuelling at load ? , hold it back .But it’s both together that’s the odd part .

 

[GooseGas]

Sounds like a control problem .The ECU (s) are not recognising the load .The loads the amount of fuel ratio of demand / given .There will be a sensor usually on one or more injectors .It’s not the sensor per se because that should throw up its own code .
Without that info it’s not actuating the turbo actuators .Hence it revs at the dock , but unable under load .

Assume all the pins of the connectors have been checked ? Thinking bad gnd somewhere ?
Also I am assuming the battery voltage and alternator output is correct ? You have not mentioned those .A voltage drop may throw the ECU (s) = cause an aberration.

Or as SC 35 says post # 10 it’s the vacuum pump kit or part there of , it’s connections etc what ever controls the variable vanes .Check for leaky vacuum.Seals pipes , valves etc .

Can you see the actuator arms freely moving at the transition from 2000 rpm upwards under load attempting getting up on the plane ? If all that gear has been replaced can you manually move the actuator arms ( engines off ) .



Finally does any of the new parts thinking electrical mostly,need coding to the ECU (s) ? If so does the tech require the correct Vodia tool fully subscribed and thus up dated ?

This is all good stuff thanks. ECUs are our last resort really just because of the cost. But it’s getting to that point. It’s weird when they are isolated systems that both of them would fail / have problems at the same time.

The actuators and vanes are moving properly when off, when I say moving properly under load, the actuators don’t move all the way when they hit 50-60 boost and 2000rpm…..

A tech has done a software strip and reload last night, and doing another sea trial this morning.

The reason we were thinking boost sensors, was they don’t throw up a fault, and yesterday we had no faults….and tried getting her on a plane half a dozen times.

 

[GooseGas]

The issue here is wasn’t an original diagnosis.
Initially with variable vane tech + marine environment = ceased / stuck vanes.

But the the op says in post #1 “ . We could move the vanes by hand. Everything moving and free.“

So that excludes the physical parts in my book .

Since then it appears to have been a parts throwing fest if iam honest from what I have read .

I get the “ while it’s out “ ( engines removed ) let’s do this that and other ……but as I said without any diagnosis it’s just blind parts replacement.
Which is where we are now .

The interesting thing is the fact they faulted simultaneously with apparently the same issue .
So fuel ….which has been gone through.Which is where J rudge is , rightfully questioning btw .

Voltage / electrotwackery issues …relate to ECU management which hasn’t been looked at except physical replacement of the harness / looms .

We need to scroll right back now to the time before , the lead up to the faults .
Was it left unused ? How long ? Was it on a charger ? What state are the batts , was it inadvertently fired up on a faulty charger and the combined shore power + its own alternator supply kicking in has blown something in an ECU ? = the bit that reads the load and controls boost ( I know it seems vacuum operated ) but we have to go back to when it was last used fully working understand this …..and find what’s changed = go from there .

edit - Would boost pressure sensors if faulty prevent fuelling at load ? , hold it back .But it’s both together that’s the odd part .

Thanks for your response Portofino. I agree, it has become a bit of a diagnosis by replacement situation, which is frustrating for all parties.

Voltage / Electrowackery has been kind of ruled out. Sparky has tested everything and it all checks out, whilst the engines were out and the harnesses replaced everything was checked and re-crimped if it need it. Batteries are fine etc.

Originally Dec 2022 when the issues came up, only port was faulting with the VNT valve as the error code out of the ECU. Starboard couldn't get to full rpm or pressure without Port. After half a dozen shut downs, and restarts, under load both faulted.

Responding to your next few questions, the boat is used fairly regularly (circa 80-100h a season) but New Zealand had a very bad Sept - March block and boats were used less than normal. Yes it's on a charger, on shore power, but shore power is always disconnected before starting the engines. More from a concern around leaving the dock whilst the cable is connected vs spiking something in the ECU.

I did DM a forum user that had the same engines, with the same performance issue.....he came back to me and said his hoses from the vacuum pump weren't holding pressure, which sounds very similar. They replaced both ECUs, no improvement and then the Volvo Tech wanted to replace the injector sensors, no change. He had a mate that worked for Volvo trucks work on it and said the vacuum pump hose leak is a common fault in the truck world. It confuses the ECU also so can throw up VNT / Actuator faults, when it's not.

So, the lads are compression testing the Vacuum pump and hoses.....we also have the boost temp / pressure sensors on order (Only $60 a pop).

If those two things don't do it.....we will have to sit down and take stock. I can't really afford more.

Thanks for all your responses, it has really helped.

Goose.

 

[Sunny265]

I wish you well with this problem

VP and D3’s…

 

[GooseGas]

Update:

Had the techs check the hoses from the turbo vacuum pump to the actuator, which was a solution to another forum user's D3 190. Pressure tested fine, zip tided each end to make sure there are no leaks. Also had the turbo pressure and temp sensors replaced.

No fix.

Both engines came up in RPM slightly higher than they had before 2,400 - 2,500 (50 and 60 psi turbo pressure) and it felt like it would slowly get to plane, but then both faulted and back down to 2,000 and 20 psi.

Any other thoughts would be welcome. I really don't want to do the ECUs as that is another $10k on an already a very very large bill.

 

[GooseGas]

Were the boost pressure sensors checked out?

Were parts 3.) and 5.) both replaced?



View attachment 157119

@SC35

Given the results of the last few updates. I'm tempted to try anything, but do you think it could still be the vacuum pump itself or governor when both engines are behaving exactly the same? Seems so weird.