visitng channel isles and france, informing customs?

[steve yates]

I notice ffrom the rya's site that we are supposed to fill in a form if leaving the uk and again on returning, plus fly a q flag until we have rung a number (when we get a phone signal!) if going to a non eu country, like the channel islands!

Is this correct? and if so is it normal practice or is it one of those rules that the authorities have if they need it but in practice it's too much hassle for them to enforce and monitor fully?

If I sail in french waters or enter a french port, am I right in thinking I will need my vhf licence on board, my insurance docs, and a copy of the bill of sale, and must fly the red ensign.
(currently I fly no flag as I have no flagpole and have never seen the need)
Are courtesy flags expected or are they one of those old forms of ettiquette that get traditionalists red in the face?

I have no problem with the idea of flying one, i just don't have one, and am short of time that can be better utilised than shopping for it.

 

[prv]

You're right about the Channel Islands (non-EU) procedure in theory. I did do this once, but the person on the end of the phone seemed a bit confused, took a while to find out what he had to do, and was clearly reading a set of instructions for the first time. I believe the calls go through to the freight-handling part of Customs at Heathrow as a minor side-job for them. From the lack of familiarity of the staff (I've heard similar stories from others) I assume that the vast majority of UK yachts visiting the Channel Islands aren't following the clearing-in procedure to the UK.

The Channel Islands take their side of the procedure more seriously, but it's no great hassle. You'll be given a customs form at any of the likely berthing places and there are yellow postboxes conveniently placed to put it into once filled in. At Alderney, flying a Q flag is meant to be a hint to the water taxi that they should bring you a form, but it seems to be a bit hit and miss.

You don't need to do anything to clear into the EU when going from the Channel Islands to France, and of course going on from France to the UK is intra-EU with no requirements.

You should fly a red ensign and French courtesy flag in French waters and ports (nothing needed for the CIs). I don't know what the likely practical consequences are of not doing so in friendly northern France, but it does have legal significance and so is a bit more important than UK-waters flag-waggery. As far as I know there's no suggestion of flying the Q flag when travelling between UK and France.

If you find yourself needing to show any paperwork to French officials, a registry certificate will be towards the top of the list of what they're expecting. For most of us that means Small Ships Registry - do you have one?

Pete

 

[johnalison]

If you find yourself needing to show any paperwork to French officials, a registry certificate will be towards the top of the list of what they're expecting. For most of us that means Small Ships Registry - do you have one?

Pete

I'm sure that's true but I think they worry about VAT payment as well. I was once boarded in St Quay and asked for my paperwork, which included an out-of-date SSR. I handed over a whole folio with the SSR tucked somewhere behind the gas service certificate and got away with it.

 

[steve yates]

The insurance cert will have her date on it, 1974, so should be an easy vat deemed paid.
Pete, the paperwork is aboard so cant remember. It willstill be in previous owners name though.
She has a registered gross tonnage plaque aboard, whatever that is for.

 

[Ludd]

The insurance cert will have her date on it, 1974, so should be an easy vat deemed paid.
Pete, the paperwork is aboard so cant remember. It willstill be in previous owners name though.
She has a registered gross tonnage plaque aboard, whatever that is for.

She must have been on Part one feg at one time.
Most countries like to see your national dnsign and a courtesy flag. If you have time to post on here, you've got time to order them on line
They're cheap enough!

 

[laika]

"what prv said".
Here's a thread on my experience of trying to "do the right thing" a few years back:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?402406-National-Yacht-Line
Last year I noted that Reeds said that the Q flag did not need to be flown when entering Guernsey but the "Guernsey Cruising Guide" we were given in St. Peter Port (which I confirmed with the harbour master was correct) said it was needed. I did notify the nice people at Reeds but haven't confirmed that the update is in this year's almanac.

Note that I wasn't flying the Q flag (because Reeds said I didn't need to) and the Bailiff didn't shoot me. The French don't seem to take such things very seriously and they don't get shot either so mistakes are tolerated but I do try and comply with rules where it's reasonable to do so.

 

[BoyBlue49]

But they do take registration and insurance very seriously, red ensign and courtesy flag a must. Try to conform and you will have an easy ride, the alternative can be costly.

 

[macd]

The insurance cert will have her date on it, 1974, so should be an easy vat deemed paid.

Strictly, you need evidence of age (which your insurance cert is probably not) and of her having been within the EU on 31.12.1994.

Section 4.2 on this page gives guidance on appropriate types of evidence of both: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

I give no guidance on the capabilities of document-creation software, but a resourceful chap like you can probably work it out.
(My last boat's evidence of whereabouts was a poor photocopy of a faded fax from a marina. It was rather convincing, in its way.)

In all likelihood, probably no-one will give a flying fandango, anyway.

 

[steve yates]

She must have been on Part one feg at one time.
Most countries like to see your national dnsign and a courtesy flag. If you have time to post on here, you've got time to order them on line
They're cheap enough!

aye but i'll be gone before they get here, so thats no use

 

[Tranona]

aye but i'll be gone before they get here, so thats no use

Whatever you do, don't go to France without a current registration document for the boat in your name. They don't always ask to see it, but if they do then the on the spot fine makes a serious dent in your wine budget!

As usual the useful information on taking your boat abroad is on the RYA site. None of it is onerous, just needs organising in advance.

 

[pagoda]

Whatever you do, don't go to France without a current registration document for the boat in your name. They don't always ask to see it, but if they do then the on the spot fine makes a serious dent in your wine budget!

As usual the useful information on taking your boat abroad is on the RYA site. None of it is onerous, just needs organising in advance.

Been to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Eire. The only interest in paperwork was shown was once in Eire and on return from Norway in Lerwick. Nobody else was remotely interested. We had the suggested paperwork- SSR - Insurance etc ready.... ??

 

[macd]

Been to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Eire. The only interest in paperwork was shown was once in Eire and on return from Norway in Lerwick. Nobody else was remotely interested. We had the suggested paperwork- SSR - Insurance etc ready.... ??

The reference to France was quite specific. There have been examples of hefty fines for visitors unable to produce registration documents (allegedly...and the legal justification of same was a matter of endless dispute on here). Suffice it to mention that the very existence of SSR is in large measure due to the desire of French officialdom to have something to peruse in idle moments. It's daft to go there without it although, as in all such matters, you'd usually get away with it.

 

[davidej]

We sailed into Guernsey and were met by a customs/immigration launch. They asked where we has come from and we replied the UK. "Say you came from Alderney - it is less paperwork for us" was the reply. We obliged of course!

 

[duncan99210]

No idea about our Nordic friends but the Galic (and further south as well) variety almost always want to see the SSR certificate. And that's not just the gun toting folks but the marina office as well.
Handy hint..... the length most marinas take is not what you declare to them but the length as recorded on the SSR. And you tell the nice people at Cardiff what length your boat is.

 

[Topcat47]

My only experience of flying the Q on entering a French port was that the Douaniers did come eventually and were quite put out that I had "Nothing to Declare". An apology and a tot of usquebaugh each was accepted with gallic flair. I always try to "return" from a French port.

 

[superheat6k]

As a minor aside do not confuse the International Code Flag T - Red White Blue - Red at hoist, with the French Tricolore which is Blue White Red - Blue at Hoist

The French know what their flag looks like and although it was a long time ago I did see a yacht skipper challenged by a HM in Cherbourg for 'defacing' their flag.

 

[laika]

As a minor aside do not confuse the International Code Flag T - Red White Blue - Red at hoist, with the French Tricolore which is Blue White Red - Blue at Hoist

I'm sure that any official on a bad day will find something to harass you for but french sensibilities don't seem to be the same as Turkish sensibilities. In my experience the french are rather less hung up on vexillology. than people of some other nations. Look at the little union flags they're flying (if anything) on entry to the channel islands. Compare their own scrappy ensigns hung off the back stay with the ostentatious banners trailed behind dutch or american yachts. :encouragement:

I was engaging in pair trawling for several years before acquiring a legit french courtesy flag. I'm not advocating doing that (and I did eventually remember to buy a French courtesy flag) but I doubt the french are going to slam you in the bastille for it.

 

[guernseyman]

"what prv said".
Here's a thread on my experience of trying to "do the right thing" a few years back:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?402406-National-Yacht-Line
Last year I noted that Reeds said that the Q flag did not need to be flown when entering Guernsey but the "Guernsey Cruising Guide" we were given in St. Peter Port (which I confirmed with the harbour master was correct) said it was needed. I did notify the nice people at Reeds but haven't confirmed that the update is in this year's almanac.

Note that I wasn't flying the Q flag (because Reeds said I didn't need to) and the Bailiff didn't shoot me. The French don't seem to take such things very seriously and they don't get shot either so mistakes are tolerated but I do try and comply with rules where it's reasonable to do so.

From the April updates to the 2018 Reeds Almanac:

AREA 19, CHANNEL ISLANDS
829, 9.19.6, SPECIAL NOTES: CHANNEL ISLANDS, para 5,
Customs, amend: Yachts arriving in Guernsey must fly a Q flag
until clearance has been obtained. A Customs declaration form
is provided on arrival, post in yellow Customs box, or hand to a
Customs Official. This does not apply to Jersey unless you arrive
from outside the European Economic Area (EEA), have non-EEA
nationals on board (with valid passports), or goods to declare,
when a Q flag must be flown.
On return to UK Customs Formalities apply. Yachts going to
France need usual documents, passports etc.

 

[macd]

[re ensign and courtesy flag] aye but i'll be gone before they get here, so thats no use

You might get away with wearing no ensign in France, Steve. But If you venture further afield, you will need one. Some countries, as suggested, are very sniffy about it. In maritime law you are required to wear one in foreign waters (strictly, just when entering harbour, I think, but that's exactly where you're most likely to encounter officialdom).

If you have the impression that showing a courtesy flag is just that, a simple courtesy, then you'd be well advised to reconsider. It actually represents an agreement to respect the maritime rules of the country you're visiting. Some countries are pretty casual about this, but by no means all.

"I didn't have time to get one" might not carry much weight. A good cruiser's rule: don't wind up men in peaked caps for no good reason.

 

[prv]

If you have the impression that showing a courtesy flag is just that, a simple courtesy, then you'd be well advised to reconsider. It actually represents an agreement to respect the maritime rules of the country you're visiting. Some countries are pretty casual about this, but by no means all.

Not that I'm suggesting this would happen off Cherbourg, but a retired marine electrician I once sailed with said his ship had been shot at in a South American port for displaying the wrong courtesy flag. The master complained to the port captain, who seemed unbothered and said his harbour guard had done nothing wrong and it was the ship's fault for displaying the flag of a neighbouring country that they didn't get on with.

When we chartered in Greece once, my dad tried to replace the boat's proper ensign with his UK club defaced one (wrong from a UK flag-waggery point of view as well, of course...). One of the charter company staff came haring down from the office to make him change it back, he was quite worked up and very concerned that the Greek or Turkish authorities would impound or otherwise encumber the company's yacht for flying the wrong ensign.

Again, not suggesting you're going to get arrested for not flying a courtesy flag on the Channel coast, just making the point that international flag laws are not the same thing as UK yacht-club burgee games. It's perhaps more like the number-plate on a car, or at least the "GB" sticker.

Pete