visitng channel isles and france, informing customs?

steve yates said:
I notice ffrom the rya's site that we are supposed to fill in a form if leaving the uk and again on returning, plus fly a q flag until we have rung a number (when we get a phone signal!) if going to a non eu country, like the channel islands!

Is this correct? and if so is it normal practice or is it one of those rules that the authorities have if they need it but in practice it's too much hassle for them to enforce and monitor fully?

If I sail in french waters or enter a french port, am I right in thinking I will need my vhf licence on board, my insurance docs, and a copy of the bill of sale, and must fly the red ensign.
(currently I fly no flag as I have no flagpole and have never seen the need)
Are courtesy flags expected or are they one of those old forms of ettiquette that get traditionalists red in the face?

I have no problem with the idea of flying one, i just don't have one, and am short of time that can be better utilised than shopping for it.
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Yes you need to fill in a form and post it in a customs box (if you can find one) if you're heading to the Channel Islands, but not if you're heading to France and end up in the Channel Islands due to weather.
Paperwork - make sure the paperwork covers the VAT status.
Red Ensign - yes.
Courtesy Flags - not legally, but don't whinge if the douanes take and interest and ages to deal with you if you haven't got one.
 
While it is only sensible and polite to comply with regulations and custom, formalities on the continent are pretty minimal, and seldom even evident. I used to enjoy hoisting or changing the courtesy flag as one crossed the boundary on the plotter, but feel less inclined to do this in boisterous weather, and frequently arrive with no or the wrong flag in view. In the Baltic one is forever changing countries and wrong flags are widely seen, as the arrival home of yachts showing a foreign flag to display the owner's foreign credentials.
 
macd said:
You might get away with wearing no ensign in France, Steve. But If you venture further afield, you will need one. Some countries, as suggested, are very sniffy about it. In maritime law you are required to wear one in foreign waters (strictly, just when entering harbour, I think, but that's exactly where you're most likely to encounter officialdom).

If you have the impression that showing a courtesy flag is just that, a simple courtesy, then you'd be well advised to reconsider. It actually represents an agreement to respect the maritime rules of the country you're visiting. Some countries are pretty casual about this, but by no means all.

"I didn't have time to get one" might not carry much weight. A good cruiser's rule: don't wind up men in peaked caps for no good reason.
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Oh I have an ensign, it's just stuffed down a locker somewhere, so thats no problem to dig it out.
 
There is a big chandlers in both Cherbourg & St peter Port so if you go to either places you can get an ensign & courtesy pretty easily. In Cherbourg you can go straight to the chandler & get the flags before you even book in as it is next door to the office. On arrival if questioned have a bit of broken stick on the transom & say you caught a rope on it & broke the ensign off
By the way- if you go to Cherbourg & are a member of the RYA you get 25% discount. Does not matter if you are not, just say you are.
 
prv said:
You're right about the Channel Islands (non-EU) procedure in theory. I did do this once, but the person on the end of the phone seemed a bit confused, took a while to find out what he had to do, and was clearly reading a set of instructions for the first time. I believe the calls go through to the freight-handling part of Customs at Heathrow as a minor side-job for them. From the lack of familiarity of the staff (I've heard similar stories from others) I assume that the vast majority of UK yachts visiting the Channel Islands aren't following the clearing-in procedure to the UK.

The Channel Islands take their side of the procedure more seriously, but it's no great hassle. You'll be given a customs form at any of the likely berthing places and there are yellow postboxes conveniently placed to put it into once filled in. At Alderney, flying a Q flag is meant to be a hint to the water taxi that they should bring you a form, but it seems to be a bit hit and miss.

You don't need to do anything to clear into the EU when going from the Channel Islands to France, and of course going on from France to the UK is intra-EU with no requirements.

You should fly a red ensign and French courtesy flag in French waters and ports (nothing needed for the CIs). I don't know what the likely practical consequences are of not doing so in friendly northern France, but it does have legal significance and so is a bit more important than UK-waters flag-waggery. As far as I know there's no suggestion of flying the Q flag when travelling between UK and France.

You must show an original SSR document but it would do no harm to be able to give them a photocopy as well as copies of passports.

If you find yourself needing to show any paperwork to French officials, a registry certificate will be towards the top of the list of what they're expecting. For most of us that means Small Ships Registry - do you have one?

Pete
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I have spoken with French customs officials who inform that they want to see the justification for the flag. That means you need a red ensign (and preferably a courtesy flag if you want to be dealt with courteously) and, at minimum, an SSR. I have never been asked for my VHF licence (just as well....) and marinas may ask to ensure that you are covered by insurance.
 
Although usually no one gives a damn about your papers, I did have a run in with Dutch customs a couple of years ago. I showed them a scan of the original Bill of Sale [as a pdf on a tablet], and they were happy with that. They then asked for proof VAT had been paid, and I pointed to the Bill of Sale. Hmm. Did I have the original invoice? No. They got very shirty and pursued me by email until I got home and found a scanned copy deep in the recesses of an old hard disk which I sent to them.
 
johnalison said:
In the Baltic one is forever changing countries and wrong flags are widely seen
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When I raced in the Baltic, there was a note in the sailing instructions saying that not changing the courtesy flag when crossing a halfway line was not grounds for protest :)

Pete
 
st599 said:
Yes you need to fill in a form and post it in a customs box (if you can find one) if you're heading to the Channel Islands
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It's a postal address nowadays, not a dedicated box.

You can download the form. I have a few copies (pre-printed with the boat's details that don't change) together with stamped addressed envelopes in the back of my Ship's Papers folder - fit of organisational enthusiasm before my first visit :). Not that I've used them recently.

Pete
 
prv said:
When I raced in the Baltic, there was a note in the sailing instructions saying that not changing the courtesy flag when crossing a halfway line was not grounds for protest :)

Pete
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When I raced in the Baltic there was a paragraph in the instructions which, when translated, said that anyone making a protest would have to face the protest committee while standing in a cold shower.
 
Daydream believer said:
There is a big chandlers in both Cherbourg & St peter Port so if you go to either places you can get an ensign & courtesy pretty easily. In Cherbourg you can go straight to the chandler & get the flags before you even book in as it is next door to the office. On arrival if questioned have a bit of broken stick on the transom & say you caught a rope on it & broke the ensign off
By the way- if you go to Cherbourg & are a member of the RYA you get 25% discount. Does not matter if you are not, just say you are.
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Is the discount you to which you refer off the chandlery or marina?
 
Joker said:
Although usually no one gives a damn about your papers, I did have a run in with Dutch customs a couple of years ago. I showed them a scan of the original Bill of Sale [as a pdf on a tablet], and they were happy with that. They then asked for proof VAT had been paid, and I pointed to the Bill of Sale. Hmm. Did I have the original invoice? No. They got very shirty and pursued me by email until I got home and found a scanned copy deep in the recesses of an old hard disk which I sent to them.
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Someone on this forum showed his forms on an Ipad to Belgian customs & upset the officers big time. Was also fined re red diesel
When in Ostend the customs officer boarding my boat was running through a tick sheet & he said " ensign" looked aft , saw i had one said " yes" ticked the sheet & carried on . From that one can deduce that Belgians expect it.
In France I have seen customs just inspecting UK flagged yachts & ignoring Dutch, so i assume that they expect ensigns to be flown
 
It would seem wise to dig out the ensign and fly it then.
The courtesy flag can wait till I arrive in a port I can buy one. I get into penzance at 8pm by train tomorrow and sail at 5am, so no shopping for one beforehand.

The papers I will just have to see what is in my folder on the boat, cos I can't remember. If no ssr, I might just visit the ci and not risk france.
 
Joker said:
Although usually no one gives a damn about your papers, I did have a run in with Dutch customs a couple of years ago. I showed them a scan of the original Bill of Sale [as a pdf on a tablet], and they were happy with that. They then asked for proof VAT had been paid, and I pointed to the Bill of Sale. Hmm. Did I have the original invoice? No. They got very shirty and pursued me by email until I got home and found a scanned copy deep in the recesses of an old hard disk which I sent to them.
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Not surprised at that reaction as the Bill of Sale is nothing to do with VAT as it is just a record of transfer of title. Only the original VAT invoice is evidence although in some states registration is because you can't register a boat without the original proof. not so, of course with a UK boat.
 
Please note you may well be asked to substantiate your claim to a discount at Cherbourg, such as showing your RYA card or club membership card. I have been challenged. There also check you off on the Scuttlebutt cruise, if you're claiming discount for attending. You only get the discount once per visit, though. I don't get both Club and Scuttlebutt discounts in September.....
 
steve yates said:
I notice ffrom the rya's site that we are supposed to fill in a form if leaving the uk and again on returning, plus fly a q flag until we have rung a number (when we get a phone signal!) if going to a non eu country, like the channel islands!
Click to expand...

I can only suppose you lot are too young to remember the procedure pre EU. You had to fill in form C1328 which was 3 Pages of A4, thankfully with carbon paper to copy most of the details onto pages 2 and 3. You had to list all the crew complete with passport details, DOB etc. There were comprehensive details required about the boat plus port of departure, date of depature, expected place and date of return. You had to post the top copy to customs before departure and retain pages to 2 and 3 for completion before returning to UK waters. Completion details included place and time of arrival plus signed declarations from all crew members regarding all purchases made whilst abroad. On return one crew member was allowed to go ashore to contact customs (no mobiles in those days). Customs would almost invariably say that you must all stay on the boat for two hours and if no one turned up you were free to go after posting page 2 to the local customs office. After a cross channel trip most people were desperate to get to the club bar before it closed but you could guarantee that if you did the Feds would be there in minutes. I am sure they kept a look out for thirsty sailors.

Essentially, the official policy is that the system is still the same for a visit to the Channel Islands it’s just that the UK is no longer set up to deal with it. Anyone with any sense comes back via France – or at least makes their log look as though they did.

In comparison to foreign customs the UK customs were a quantum league worse. I hardly ever came across a foreign customs officer in many years of cross-channel trips. In contrast I a scarcely remember a trip when I didn’t commit some offence in the eyes of UK customs after getting back to the UK.

My offences included two of us searching all over Salcombe to find the local customs man – should have done it on my own. Failing to illuminate my Q-flag at night. Should have had a crew member standing on the fordeck shinning a torch on it as we entered harbour. Not getting crew to sign off their declarations before entering UK waters. Adjudged too late to do it alongside whilst waiting for customs to arrive despite the fact that it was rough and most of them would have been seasick if they had tried. Failing to hoist a Q flag early enough. The charter boat only had a yellow duster and we were trying to peg it to the shrouds as we entered harbour. Failing to declare a new Guernsey sweater – inside my allowance but I had left it in a plastic bag so they could tell it was new. I could go on but it gets me wound up just thinking about it. I never got fined but most of these “offences” resulted in a full rumble search of the boat.

I strongly suspect that come full Brexit our Border force will go into overdrive and try and implement an electronic version of C1328 - the real hassle will probably all be on this side of the channel.
 
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