Kukri
Well-known member
You have comprehensively missed the point.
Vendee Globe and Alex Thomson / Hugo Boss
- Thread starter RichardS
- Start date
You have comprehensively missed the point.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
well so did everyone else in the previous thread. Would you mind explaining in terms a simpleton can comprehend?
Bathdave
Well-known member
German tv is speculating that it was a nationalistic act by a french fisherman
I’m gutted for Boris
all the local fishermen would have known a fleet (5-6 boats overnight) were racing in after 80 days in big wind and seas
I would have thought local coastguard would have had advisories in place
I’m gutted for Boris
all the local fishermen would have known a fleet (5-6 boats overnight) were racing in after 80 days in big wind and seas
I would have thought local coastguard would have had advisories in place
Kukri
Well-known member
Boris Hermann says he spent half an hour on the VHF to “the Captain” (let’s assume the OOW) telling him to alter course by thirty degrees because as a sailing vessel he has right of way.
This was in the broad Atlantic, with miles of ocean on every side.
Now, the boat is one of the leading competitors in the Vendée Globe round the world race, with millions in sponsorship, and was making twenty knots, give or take a couple. The ship was making thirteen, and she and her crew are earning an everyday living. They are not superstars. I don’t know if anything had been broadcast to tell ships off the Azores that competitors in a “formula one” sailing race would be in their vicinity; if you do, please say so. If not, they may have had no reason to expect to find a yacht making that sort of speed crossing their course. It’s not something that you see every day. The OOW’s initial reaction may well have been to doubt the speed data and thus the ARPA plot, in which case he would naturally hold his course and keep an eye on the plot.
That speed tells us that when Boris Hermann picked up his VHF for what he tells us was his half hour chat, he would have been roughly ten miles from the CPA, so a course alteration of five degrees to go under the Hanna Oldendorff’s stern have seen him go clear by a mile, and would have added no perceptible distance to his track. It would not have affected his finishing time.
The Hanna Oldendorff is a big ship - 208,000 dwt. She loaded at Port Cartier in Canada, so Canadian iron ore, because that’s what comes from there, and she’s heading for the Suez Canal.
There is a thing that the Admiralty Court calls “the ordinary good practice of seamen”. If a close quarters situation can be avoided, it should be.
There is also a little ditty which you probably know:
“Here lies the body of Johnny O’Day
Who died preserving his Right of Way”
People who mess about in boats for fun used to think that the right thing to do was not to get in the way of people who go to sea for a living.
We can see that Hermann has his own (M)ARPA plot so since he knows his own vessel and knows (as he tells us) the likely speed of the Hanna Oldendorff, he would have been able to form a better idea of the probable tracks of the two vessels than the ship’s OOW would - unless he was aware of the race. Anyway, Hermann holds his course and in due course a close quarters situation does develop, as he tells the ship to get out of his way, which eventually she does.
What has Hermann gained from this? A nice bit of video showing that he “knows his rights”?
The whole thing was un-necessary. To be precise, an un- necessary risk for the yacht and an unnecessary course alteration for the ship.
My point about the fishing boat is that a man who will take one risk will take others. No doubt we will hear more about that, shortly.
I repeat - there was no reason for a close quarters situation to develop at all, here.
This was in the broad Atlantic, with miles of ocean on every side.
Now, the boat is one of the leading competitors in the Vendée Globe round the world race, with millions in sponsorship, and was making twenty knots, give or take a couple. The ship was making thirteen, and she and her crew are earning an everyday living. They are not superstars. I don’t know if anything had been broadcast to tell ships off the Azores that competitors in a “formula one” sailing race would be in their vicinity; if you do, please say so. If not, they may have had no reason to expect to find a yacht making that sort of speed crossing their course. It’s not something that you see every day. The OOW’s initial reaction may well have been to doubt the speed data and thus the ARPA plot, in which case he would naturally hold his course and keep an eye on the plot.
That speed tells us that when Boris Hermann picked up his VHF for what he tells us was his half hour chat, he would have been roughly ten miles from the CPA, so a course alteration of five degrees to go under the Hanna Oldendorff’s stern have seen him go clear by a mile, and would have added no perceptible distance to his track. It would not have affected his finishing time.
The Hanna Oldendorff is a big ship - 208,000 dwt. She loaded at Port Cartier in Canada, so Canadian iron ore, because that’s what comes from there, and she’s heading for the Suez Canal.
There is a thing that the Admiralty Court calls “the ordinary good practice of seamen”. If a close quarters situation can be avoided, it should be.
There is also a little ditty which you probably know:
“Here lies the body of Johnny O’Day
Who died preserving his Right of Way”
People who mess about in boats for fun used to think that the right thing to do was not to get in the way of people who go to sea for a living.
We can see that Hermann has his own (M)ARPA plot so since he knows his own vessel and knows (as he tells us) the likely speed of the Hanna Oldendorff, he would have been able to form a better idea of the probable tracks of the two vessels than the ship’s OOW would - unless he was aware of the race. Anyway, Hermann holds his course and in due course a close quarters situation does develop, as he tells the ship to get out of his way, which eventually she does.
What has Hermann gained from this? A nice bit of video showing that he “knows his rights”?
The whole thing was un-necessary. To be precise, an un- necessary risk for the yacht and an unnecessary course alteration for the ship.
My point about the fishing boat is that a man who will take one risk will take others. No doubt we will hear more about that, shortly.
I repeat - there was no reason for a close quarters situation to develop at all, here.
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Frogmogman
Well-known member
???
It's STILL going to be a really close finish, with Yannick Bestaven.
It's unfortunate for Boris, for sure, but more unfortunate than Jeremy Beyou or Alex Thomson damaging their rudders on abandoned fishing gear ? than Nicolas Troussel losing his mast ? than Kevin Escoffier's boat breaking up and sinking ?
I would like to think that the sour grapes remarks about it being a fiendish French plot are tongue in cheek; they are certainly at variance with the admirably sporting atmosphere that has reigned throughout this wonderful event.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Nope.
Herman is sailing to make a living too. He's a professional sailor. He is a sailing vessel. Long before a close quarters situation developed he makes a curtesy call to the vessel to confirm he is a sailing vessel.
End of case. He is stand on and the motor vessel knows. Take that to court!
Kukri
Well-known member
I used to make a living doing just that - taking collision cases to the Admiralty Court of the High Court in London. I don’t think that anyone who does so now would advise taking this case to that court. But you can perhaps prove me wrong.
Roberto
Well-known member
I just learnt Louis Burton's father is Welsh, he is also a descendant of Sir Francis Burton.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
LOL. I assume we can all look forward to a revision of COLREGS then.
You are claiming that the motor vessel is under no obligation to respect IRPCS because for some mystical reason his commercial interest is greater than that of the professional sailor.
It's nonsense. The moment he knew there was a possible conflict with a vessel to which he is obliged to give way then he must do exactly that because as you say there is “the ordinary good practice of seamen”.
Kukri
Well-known member
No. I am saying that the risk of collision did not need to exist. Hermann chose to stand on when, given his better appreciation of the situation than the ship’s officer of the watch, who was probably not expecting to see a twenty knot sailing boat, he could easily have made a trifling alteration of course and eliminated the risk of collision entirely.
Once the ship did appreciate the situation (and it may be that the OOW called the Master to the wheelhouse, to be sure) the ship did alter course.
My point is that there was no need for it, but it made a few minutes of video clip “drama” for Hermann and his sponsors.
Once the ship did appreciate the situation (and it may be that the OOW called the Master to the wheelhouse, to be sure) the ship did alter course.
My point is that there was no need for it, but it made a few minutes of video clip “drama” for Hermann and his sponsors.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
This latest update from the VG site
With 96 nautical miles to the finish line at 2230hrs UTC Yannick Bestaven has to cross the finish line before 0550hrs 47mins UTC if he is to better Charlie Dalin's elapsed time of 80d 06h 15m 47s. Bestaven is making 18kts and needs to average 13,5kts.
With 96 nautical miles to the finish line at 2230hrs UTC Yannick Bestaven has to cross the finish line before 0550hrs 47mins UTC if he is to better Charlie Dalin's elapsed time of 80d 06h 15m 47s. Bestaven is making 18kts and needs to average 13,5kts.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
No. You are dismissing the fact that there is no such things as a "trifling alteration of course" for an IMOCA on it's foil at max speed. And Boris was crossing from stbd so even if the OOW assumed the 20kt vessel was motor driven it still had right of way and so a course alteration was appropriate.
30 minutes to convince the OOW of his legal obligation.
And you call Boris a prat?
Kukri
Well-known member
I am sure you are right. Enjoy the rest of your conversation.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Glad we cleared that up.
Ravi
Active member
LOL.
Although he was in the 30 minute update zone, Boris's position was being updated on the tracker every 5 minutes.
An obvious major marketing concession to German TV to get more publicity since Boris was nailed on to win ....... andd then that bloody fishing boat comes along.
You couldn't make it up.
Live sort defies reality.
.
Although he was in the 30 minute update zone, Boris's position was being updated on the tracker every 5 minutes.
An obvious major marketing concession to German TV to get more publicity since Boris was nailed on to win ....... andd then that bloody fishing boat comes along.
You couldn't make it up.
Live sort defies reality.
.
ridgy
Well-known member
Sad for boris but it only adds to the spectacle and legend that is the vendee globe. It's all been done before though, golding lost his keel with 50nm to go and still brought it home.
Ravi
Active member
It looks like Bestaven is comfortably placed to take first place. He seems like a canny guy who has sailed a shrewd race.
Enter Stage left: ........ a fishing vessel!
Enter Stage left: ........ a fishing vessel!
Ravi
Active member
Bestavan has been quite a low key contestand but he has been very canny.
His end-game manoeuvres are, perhaps, the best example of this. He went unequivocally with the Northbound option for the last phase. He has sailed this line for 900 NM without tacking or jibing. And then, when others compromised and hedged their bets he stuck with his gamble and went far North. The end result is that he got the speeds that he threw the dice for. Here are his figures for his closing passage into the race finish.
A tactical masterstroke made sweeter by coming across the line at speed knowing that your last jibe was 900 NM behind you and that you nailed your tactics.
Congrats. Yannick.
His end-game manoeuvres are, perhaps, the best example of this. He went unequivocally with the Northbound option for the last phase. He has sailed this line for 900 NM without tacking or jibing. And then, when others compromised and hedged their bets he stuck with his gamble and went far North. The end result is that he got the speeds that he threw the dice for. Here are his figures for his closing passage into the race finish.
Time | | | Dist to Fin (M) | | Speed |
01:00:00 | - | | 44.8 | - | 22.6 |
01:05:00 | - | | 42.8 | - | 23.1 |
01:10:00 | - | | 41 | - | 21.5 |
01:15:00 | - | | 39.2 | - | 21.9 |
01:20:00 | - | | 37.3 | - | 22.8 |
01:25:00 | - | | 35.5 | - | 22 |
01:30:00 | - | | 33.8 | - | 20.9 |
01:45:00 | - | | 29.4 | - | 17.2 |
01:50:00 | - | | 28 | - | 16.2 |
01:55:00 | - | | 26.7 | - | 15.8 |
A tactical masterstroke made sweeter by coming across the line at speed knowing that your last jibe was 900 NM behind you and that you nailed your tactics.
Congrats. Yannick.
Ravi
Active member
Bestaven finishes at - 03:19:46 with a 10 hour time allowance for assisting in the rescue
Dalin had crossed first across the line at 19:35:47. So Betaven takes first place.
Great race.
Dalin had crossed first across the line at 19:35:47. So Betaven takes first place.
Great race.
Skellum
Well-known member
Congratulations to Yannick - well deserved. He and Louis were not well fancied before the start and after giving up that big lead in the S Atlantic I’m sure he wondered if his chance was gone, but he made some bold choices and got the reward.
Louis was also class with no complaints about the redress and his comeback from Macquarie Island was outstanding.
Charlie can be proud of sailing a strong race and gets a deserved Line Honour and another year his newer boat might have won overall.
Very unlucky for Boris just before the finish - it looks like he may yet hang on for a top 5 finish.
French fishing boats clearly testing their cloaking devices for operating undetected in UK waters. Job done ?
Louis was also class with no complaints about the redress and his comeback from Macquarie Island was outstanding.
Charlie can be proud of sailing a strong race and gets a deserved Line Honour and another year his newer boat might have won overall.
Very unlucky for Boris just before the finish - it looks like he may yet hang on for a top 5 finish.
French fishing boats clearly testing their cloaking devices for operating undetected in UK waters. Job done ?