Vendee Globe 2024, Brits

[Birdseye]

can someone explain to me what classes of boats are allowed in the race. Are they all made to the same outline design specification - in other words, age apart, are they all competeing on the same basis. If not what are the differences

 

[dunedin]

can someone explain to me what classes of boats are allowed in the race. Are they all made to the same outline design specification - in other words, age apart, are they all competeing on the same basis. If not what are the differences

One class IMOCA 60 - IMOCA 60 - Wikipedia

 

[John_Silver]

@Birdseye :
IMOCA.org Rules, from the Class Association. In an ‘one pager.’Also a bit about the evolution, from Archimedean to foiling designs. Both flavours competing in this race. The race history, designer, launch date, builder, skipper etc, of each competing IMOCA, here (when you click on the pix)

Helen Fretter’s Who Will Win the Vendée Globe article, for YW, provides an easily digested review of the fleet.

 

[Birdseye]

Thanks. I suspected it wasnt a full one design and this seems to be the case with some boats foiling and others with just daggerboards. Also its a bit like F1 with ongoing technical development making last years boat "out of date". So I guess that like other forms of racing its not just ability but also budget which decides the winner.

Both british entrants are no hopers in that they are sailing old boats ?

 

[ridgy]

A new boat gives you the opportunity to be in the leading group but it still has to be sailed to it's full potential. Those with new boats have proved themselves of being worth the investment and will have been instrumental in the design of it. Just like F1, the best drivers usually end up in the best cars but as we see with Sergio Perez, the car still needs to be driven.

It's like any yacht race, some boats will have new sails and the owners spend the money to have the bottom cleaned the day before. Others are just happy to be out there content to measure themselves against their perceived peers, in the vendee globe case those with similar age boats. Beating your peers puts you in the frame for better sponsorship next time round. Just like Pip did last time.

I wonder, on a scale of 1 to 10, from his vantage point 2000 miles behind, how much Jean le Cam regrets building a brand new non foiler.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Sam D has a new boat. Sam G has a 2019 boat, Boris has a new boat. The boat is only part of the story.
Top 20 as of now:
C Dalin 2022
Y Richomme 2022
S Simon 2021
T Ruyant 2022
J Beyou 2022
N Lunven 2022
S Goodchild 2019
Y Bestaven 2022
P Meilhat 2022
S Davies 2022
B Hermann 2022
J Mettraux 2018
C Cremer 2019
B Dutreux 2015
R Attanasio 2015
L Burton 2019
P Hare 2015
D Seguin 2014
J Le Cam 2023 non foiling.
I Joschke 2007

 

[Buck Turgidson]

A new boat gives you the opportunity to be in the leading group but it still has to be sailed to it's full potential. Those with new boats have proved themselves of being worth the investment and will have been instrumental in the design of it. Just like F1, the best drivers usually end up in the best cars but as we see with Sergio Perez, the car still needs to be driven.

It's like any yacht race, some boats will have new sails and the owners spend the money to have the bottom cleaned the day before. Others are just happy to be out there content to measure themselves against their perceived peers, in the vendee globe case those with similar age boats. Beating your peers puts you in the frame for better sponsorship next time round. Just like Pip did last time.

I wonder, on a scale of 1 to 10, from his vantage point 2000 miles behind, how much Jean le Cam regrets building a brand new non foiler.

I don't think he cold afford a foiler nor did he want one.

 

[dunedin]

Thanks. I suspected it wasnt a full one design and this seems to be the case with some boats foiling and others with just daggerboards. Also its a bit like F1 with ongoing technical development making last years boat "out of date". So I guess that like other forms of racing its not just ability but also budget which decides the winner.

Both british entrants are no hopers in that they are sailing old boats ?

Yes they are professional sponsored racers. You don't set amazing new records like over 600nm in a day solo on a multihull with a one design class.
But with Class rules to minimise expenditure war.
Think 4 UK entrants, not just 2.

NB These boats were also raced round the world crewed in the Ocean Race, the replacement of Whitbread / Volvo races, as they were faster and cheaper than previous Volvo 70s.

 

[John_Silver]

@ridgy, some food for thought, regarding possible 'buyers remorse' by Jean Le Cam (post #225), and the mix of motivations behind his 2024 Vendee Globe campaign. I'm suspecting that he's not so much 'in it to win it, ' but more out to ‘show how it’s done:’

Jean Le Cam's thinking behind commissioning an archimedean IMOCA ; his role in making Violette Dorange's Vendee Globe dreams into reality ; and a reminder of how, in the 2020 Vendee Globe, he brought a 2006 design (now sailed by Violette) home in fourth. That last article sheds light on the Le Cam philosophy. Including his longstanding role in establishing and supporting the Port-La-Foret sailing school / CDK yard, which have done so much to make the French offshore sailing scene what it is today. His mentoring of Violette (and other young talent) is one aspect of this world view. The building of a (relatively) simple and inexpensive non-foiler, perhaps, another.......

 

[John_Silver]

Sam D has a new boat. Sam G has a 2019 boat, Boris has a new boat. The boat is only part of the story.
Top 20 as of now:
C Dalin 2022
Y Richomme 2022
S Simon 2021
T Ruyant 2022
J Beyou 2022
N Lunven 2022
S Goodchild 2019
Y Bestaven 2022
P Meilhat 2022
S Davies 2022
B Hermann 2022
J Mettraux 2018
C Cremer 2019
B Dutreux 2015
R Attanasio 2015
L Burton 2019
P Hare 2015
D Seguin 2014
J Le Cam 2023 non foiling.
I Joschke 2007

Love that list. Highlights how far out of his skin (and beyond his boat's age) Sam G is performing. Fingers crossed that negotiating the impending low shuffles the pack (further) in his favour!

 

[John_Silver]

Just catching up on today's 'Live:' Paul Meilhat says that he is planning to route north (with the Vulnerables). On the tracker (14.00 sched), Seb Simon and Charlie Dalin seem to be holding south. Yoann, either hedging his bets; or planning to test his 'soft riding' Koch bow and suspension chair, heading straight through the middle. Stand by for fun and games!

 

[Birdseye]

@ridgy, some food for thought, regarding possible 'buyers remorse' by Jean Le Cam (post #225), and the mix of motivations behind his 2024 Vendee Globe campaign. I'm suspecting that he's not so much 'in it to win it, ' but more out to ‘show how it’s done:’

Jean Le Cam's thinking behind commissioning an archimedean IMOCA ; his role in making Violette Dorange's Vendee Globe dreams into reality ; and a reminder of how, in the 2020 Vendee Globe, he brought a 2006 design (now sailed by Violette) home in fourth. That last article sheds light on the Le Cam philosophy. Including his longstanding role in establishing and supporting the Port-La-Foret sailing school / CDK yard, which have done so much to make the French offshore sailing scene what it is today. His mentoring of Violette (and other young talent) is one aspect of this world view. The building of a (relatively) simple and inexpensive non-foiler, perhaps, another.......

Interesting article with what I guess we might call a local authority putting up public money to finance part of the campaign. Can anyone imagine say Manchester doing the same - and the public reaction if they did

 

[Allan]

Interesting article with what I guess we might call a local authority putting up public money to finance part of the campaign. Can anyone imagine say Manchester doing the same - and the public reaction if they did

You could say the same about the whole race.
Allan

 

[flaming]

Thanks. I suspected it wasnt a full one design and this seems to be the case with some boats foiling and others with just daggerboards. Also its a bit like F1 with ongoing technical development making last years boat "out of date". So I guess that like other forms of racing its not just ability but also budget which decides the winner.

Both british entrants are no hopers in that they are sailing old boats ?

Honestly I find it amazing that someone with as long an involvement with sailing as you knows so little about the Vendee! That's not a dig, btw, I'm just genuinely astounded that it's passed you by when you have such a long history of sailing, and posting on this forum.

The IMOCA 60 is a "skipper lead" development class. In that there is a committee and to be on it you must be a skipper sailing in the events. This has positives, in that the needs of the sailors are key, and negatives in that the needs of the sailors who are already there are most important.

The class rules are tweaked from time to time, but they've been stable for a while in their key points. There are 2 1 design items, the Keel and the mast. Both of those were instituted as OD elements after multiple failures. There is currently a proposal to update the OD mast, as it predates the foils and is currently the weak link. It is thought that with a stronger mast the boats would be faster. This is especially important with the boats being used for the Ocean Race, as fully crewed they push a lot harder.
What is interesting to me is that the boat that stood out in the Ocean Race as being the fastest, Boris' is a bit off the pace now. I have a theory as to why....

With the ocean race the crews were able to push all the time to the limits of the mast. Thus what became absolutely key to maximise the average speed was not the top speed, as this was largely the same, but to minimise slow downs by coming off the foils or hitting waves etc. Boris' boat, with it's extra rocker, was especially good at that.

However, what we've seen so far in this race is less "hanging on" conditions and more moderate full throttle conditions. Therefore the boats optimised for top speed have had the edge so far.

 

[flaming]

@ridgy, some food for thought, regarding possible 'buyers remorse' by Jean Le Cam (post #225), and the mix of motivations behind his 2024 Vendee Globe campaign. I'm suspecting that he's not so much 'in it to win it, ' but more out to ‘show how it’s done:’

Jean Le Cam's thinking behind commissioning an archimedean IMOCA ; his role in making Violette Dorange's Vendee Globe dreams into reality ; and a reminder of how, in the 2020 Vendee Globe, he brought a 2006 design (now sailed by Violette) home in fourth. That last article sheds light on the Le Cam philosophy. Including his longstanding role in establishing and supporting the Port-La-Foret sailing school / CDK yard, which have done so much to make the French offshore sailing scene what it is today. His mentoring of Violette (and other young talent) is one aspect of this world view. The building of a (relatively) simple and inexpensive non-foiler, perhaps, another.......

Consider as well that if the skipper / CEO of a team can raise X amount of cash, then they have that as a budget to put the boat on the start line and anything left over is paying them a wage. They are after all professionals, this is their only or main way of earning an income.

Assuming that X is not "all the money needed to build the very latest and greatest design and prep it to the highest possible standard and still pay them some money" A relatively young skipper might take the view that they should spend almost all of X, get the most competitive boat they possibly can in order to do well in the race and boost their standing with the goal of increasing X in the next round.
A skipper who is closer to retirement and already has a top reputation may instead take the view that not spending all of X, but spending enough to keep the sponsor happy, whilst also ensuring a decent payment into their retirement fund was altogether a better option.

Add in the fact that the VG changed the rules so simply finishing the last race was no longer enough to guarantee a ticket to this Vendee, but building a new boat (effectively) was, and that his build costs are rumoured to be considerably less than what 2020 foilers changed hands for....

He's no mug...

 

[John_Silver]

Sam G has fixed his primary (most sophisticated) pilot. Which failed during week 1. He’s been running on one, of two, back ups. Good timing, with the first big southern low imminent. And a breakaway on, at the front of the fleet.

 

[John_Silver]

.....the fact that the VG changed the rules so simply finishing the last race was no longer enough to guarantee a ticket to this Vendee, but building a new boat (effectively) was....

Pleased to see that the rules have changed again, for 2028. Levelling the qualification (if not the technological) playing field, for grassroots campaigns, like Pip's in 2020. Who knows, if all skippers had been required to qualify for 2024, James Harayda could have been on the starting line, alongside Olly Heer, Violette Dorage et al.....

 

[flaming]

Pleased to see that the rules have changed again, for 2028. Levelling the qualification (if not the technological) playing field, for grassroots campaigns, like Pip's in 2020. Who knows, if all skippers had been required to qualify for 2024, James Harayda could have been on the starting line, alongside Olly Heer, Violette Dorage et al.....

Sort of...

It's a very complicated circle to square.

1 Over demand
2. The need for skippers proposing sponsorship deals to build new boats, or buy expensive nearly new ones to have certainty that they will actually be in the race in order to get the cash.
3. The desire of the race organisers to see a competitive race
4. The desire of the race organisers not to rule out completely the "story" entrants who won't win but capture public imaginiation.

Interestingly that set of rules has changed slightly from what I first heard, in that this Vendee will count points towards qualifying for the next one. So it's quite possible that they could skew the points in such a way that finishing the race well could effectively see you "practically qualified" and those who weren't in this edition well behind the curve.

The other big question is if you have to amass all your points in the same boat. I assume not, to allow skippers who will finish this vendee in one boat but want to build / buy a new one for the next race to do so.

 

[John_Silver]

Keel problems and sail damage for Pip. Can’t embed (FB) video. But here’s a link.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Keel problems and sail damage for Pip. Can’t embed (FB) video. But here’s a link.

She has my utmost respect as a sailor but I really can't watch her videos. I do wish her well though.