VAT status post Brexit.

[nortada]

I think the situation with residents in Greece etc will be okay, probably have to pay for insurance cover etc but basically it will be sorted.
Visitors/tourists is a different thing and have still seen nothing that even suggests we will not be subject to the 90 days in 180 days rolling period. Of course if you have I would be very grateful for the information

Not about Greece or in print but folk in Portugal in influential positions are of the opinion that Portugal’s attitude towards visitors/tourists will not change and Portugal is renowned for taking little or no notice of Brussels (except when they need money).

As Brit who want it, can get temporary (5 year) registration for residency (costs €15), I would suggest anybody who is concerned about their situation post-Brexit goes down this route.

I believe other Southern EU states are adopting a similar attitude to giving residency

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Not about Greece or in print but folk in Portugal in influential positions are of the opinion that Portugal’s attitude towards visitors/tourists will not change and Portugal is renowned for taking little or no notice of Brussels (except when they need money).

As Brit who want it, can get temporary (5 year) registration for residency (costs €15), I would suggest anybody who is concerned about their situation post-Brexit goes down this route.

I believe other Southern EU states are adopting a similar attitude to giving residency

Residency is unlikely to be a problem as it wasn't before the EU, if you have the necessary then you can get residency in most countries. The problem facing many is health care costs as you will have to prove that you can afford health care. At the moment for retirees at least there exists a reciprocal arrangement where the NHS picks up the bill, it seems that it is actually cheaper for the NHS to do this than treat people within the NHS. Now if there is no future arrangement between countries then those people are going to have to take out medical insurance which can be very expensive and in all probability will not cover pre existing conditions which people over 65 are likely to have. The EH1C does not cover permanent or even temporary residents and in any case will cease to be valid is likely to be superseded by individual country agreements which are not yet in place.

 

[chrishscorp]

Residency is unlikely to be a problem as it wasn't before the EU, if you have the necessary then you can get residency in most countries. The problem facing many is health care costs as you will have to prove that you can afford health care. At the moment for retirees at least there exists a reciprocal arrangement where the NHS picks up the bill, it seems that it is actually cheaper for the NHS to do this than treat people within the NHS. Now if there is no future arrangement between countries then those people are going to have to take out medical insurance which can be very expensive and in all probability will not cover pre existing conditions which people over 65 are likely to have. The EH1C does not cover permanent or even temporary residents and in any case will cease to be valid is likely to be superseded by individual country agreements which are not yet in place.

I was very firmly told in 1990 that I was unable to buy land in Greece, but would be able to do so once they had changed the law which was an EU requirement, possibly down to Maastricht Treaty of '92. which heralded free movement.

 

[GTom]

I wonder how Brexit will change the life on the Irish sea? I am planning a trip to the IOM and further up, maybe Ireland. AFAIK right now there are no clearance and immigration requirements if someone is sailing from the UK to IOM because IOM is in the EU customs area (even though it is not a member state). However, if the UK fells out of the EU customs area, IOM stays, it means I should get myself a Q-flag...

 

[grumpygit]

From this article it would appear that Greece is adopting a very similar position to Portugal. 20,000 Brits in Greece and 50,000 Greeks in the UK - no real surprise.

It would appear that whatever the outcome of Brexit countries are going to adopt their own approach to British visitors and expats and Brussels will have little say in it.

We have a holiday home and a 8m trailer sailer in Greece. We do try to spend as much time as we can in Greece and we do this without any problems from either the Greek or UK establishments.
Before the EU we Brits lived abroad with no problems and I can't see any problem after Brexit either. Yes there are all the scare mongers with "Project Fear" spreading their venom left, right and centre.
To be honest, can the popular EU countries afford to make life difficult and drive us all back to Blighty? The long term or ex pats are a serious part of the local economies, without us these will undoubtedly suffer.
Prior to the EHIC there was the E111 for health cover so we will have to see how that pans out, but in the past I have never had a problem in using either.

My Greek Lawyer has looked in to the question of residency and here is his answer to me.

So far, there is nothing new and more specific for the British citizens. There is no change and everyone believes there will be some privileged status. Therefore, there is nothing we can prepare for. I will inform you as soon as there is some information


Greece at the moment has what is nicknamed the Gold Visa. Even if you are non EU such like Turkish, Russian or Chinese the rule is that if you buy a property over €250k one automatically receives Greek residency.

I do think we need to worry more about what our politicians are going to further cock up rather than how we will be treated by the host EU countries.

 

[tudorsailor]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already - but I cannot see that it has.....

There seems to be a difference regarding VAT depending on where your boat is on Brexit day. Its explained in the latest Cruising Association newsletter. If you are outside of the EU on B-day you lose VAT-status. If your boat is in the EU on B-day you retain "union status"

What is not clear to me is what happens if I leave the EU after b-day and return. In other words, will I lose "union status" just be visiting Montenegro for a few day

TudorSailor

 

[RupertW]

We have a holiday home and a 8m trailer sailer in Greece. We do try to spend as much time as we can in Greece and we do this without any problems from either the Greek or UK establishments.
Before the EU we Brits lived abroad with no problems and I can't see any problem after Brexit either. Yes there are all the scare mongers with "Project Fear" spreading their venom left, right and centre.
To be honest, can the popular EU countries afford to make life difficult and drive us all back to Blighty? The long term or ex pats are a serious part of the local economies, without us these will undoubtedly suffer.
Prior to the EHIC there was the E111 for health cover so we will have to see how that pans out, but in the past I have never had a problem in using either.

My Greek Lawyer has looked in to the question of residency and here is his answer to me.

So far, there is nothing new and more specific for the British citizens. There is no change and everyone believes there will be some privileged status. Therefore, there is nothing we can prepare for. I will inform you as soon as there is some information


Greece at the moment has what is nicknamed the Gold Visa. Even if you are non EU such like Turkish, Russian or Chinese the rule is that if you buy a property over €250k one automatically receives Greek residency.

I do think we need to worry more about what our politicians are going to further cock up rather than how we will be treated by the host EU countries.

I think that's very complacent. If you own property in an EU country there is obviously a better chance that the country will make special arrangement for a while for Brits, but if you simply keep your boat in the Med and cruise from one country to another then what special arrangement could be made?

At the moment it's easy and frictionless both for your boat and yourselves.

 

[lw395]

I think that's very complacent. If you own property in an EU country there is obviously a better chance that the country will make special arrangement for a while for Brits, but if you simply keep your boat in the Med and cruise from one country to another then what special arrangement could be made?

At the moment it's easy and frictionless both for your boat and yourselves.

If you move around the Med, then post Brexit, worst case is going to be being treated like any other non-EU person with a boat. Some Americans seem to cope.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already - but I cannot see that it has.....

There seems to be a difference regarding VAT depending on where your boat is on Brexit day. Its explained in the latest Cruising Association newsletter. If you are outside of the EU on B-day you lose VAT-status. If your boat is in the EU on B-day you retain "union status"

What is not clear to me is what happens if I leave the EU after b-day and return. In other words, will I lose "union status" just be visiting Montenegro for a few day

TudorSailor

Hi , I posting the part of the EU commission info on the liveAboard forum in case you not read it all .
It seen to me that as long as the boat is in the EU on b day that by le ing the EU there after you so t lose you VAT status.

 

[RupertW]

If you move around the Med, then post Brexit, worst case is going to be being treated like any other non-EU person with a boat. Some Americans seem to cope.

That's the point - the Brexit dividend is "it's a bit crap, but you'll cope". Just any retirement plans based on being as free to be in France, Italy, Greece, Spain as long as people wanted are dashed. We are European, Americans aren't, but it's ok - we'll "cope".

 

[grumpygit]

I think that's very complacent. If you own property in an EU country there is obviously a better chance that the country will make special arrangement for a while for Brits, but if you simply keep your boat in the Med and cruise from one country to another then what special arrangement could be made?

At the moment it's easy and frictionless both for your boat and yourselves.

I'm not sure of what part you are saying that I'm being complacent?
I am definitely not going to try and pre-empt what our, or the EU politicians decide for us all, especially with the movement of peoples by air, craft or vehicle.
Rightly or wrongly, my plan is to go with whatever is dished out and if necessary take it on the chin, then we'll see what my alternatives are.
For me I see no point in trying to outrun something that in all probability won't happen. I feel sure eventually commerce will rule over all else, even with the idiots in suits that sit in parliaments.
Sorry but if the above is complacent, so be it . . . . I'm complacent!!

 

[GTom]

Apologies if this has been pointed out already - but I cannot see that it has.....

There seems to be a difference regarding VAT depending on where your boat is on Brexit day. Its explained in the latest Cruising Association newsletter. If you are outside of the EU on B-day you lose VAT-status. If your boat is in the EU on B-day you retain "union status"

What is not clear to me is what happens if I leave the EU after b-day and return. In other words, will I lose "union status" just be visiting Montenegro for a few day

TudorSailor

Interesting. Your VAT was technically paid in the EU customs area and you are not supposed to loose VAT paid status in less than 3 years absence from the area. Until now, boats moved this time the customs area moves. What's the difference? Hopefully none and this will be the worst case scenario...

 

[lpdsn]

I wonder how Brexit will change the life on the Irish sea? I am planning a trip to the IOM and further up, maybe Ireland. AFAIK right now there are no clearance and immigration requirements if someone is sailing from the UK to IOM because IOM is in the EU customs area (even though it is not a member state). However, if the UK fells out of the EU customs area, IOM stays, it means I should get myself a Q-flag...

They don't mess about with illegal immigrants in the IoM. You could get twenty years hard labour.

On the other hand, they could be in a customs union with the UK not the EU and part of the CTA and pretty welcoming really, but you don't want to risk it.

 

[GTom]

They don't mess about with illegal immigrants in the IoM. You could get twenty years hard labour.

On the other hand, they could be in a customs union with the UK not the EU and part of the CTA and pretty welcoming really, but you don't want to risk it.

Thought the European ones are just shot on sight, didn't know about the arrangement with North Korea...

That UK customs union seems to stay: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-46348847

 

[Heckler]

It's nice to know that the Cruising Association has been more on the ball than the RYA.

The question is whether British boats, which have paid VAT in the EU (when Britain was a member), will retain their VAT status within the EU. The short answer is no.

The Cruising Association has been in correspondence with the EU. They have received a response from the EU Commission. To give a couple of quotes from the response from the EU:
"Where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods."
And:
"Where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods."

It would therefore appear, from the response of the EU Commission, that any UK boat in the UK at the time of Brexit, automatically loses its VAT status within Europe. This means that if you wish to keep your boat in the Baltic or the Mediterranean, it will have to leave the EU every 18 months or become liable for VAT.

This is something of a plug for the Cruising Association, but it is astonishing that no one else has picked this up.

Was something in the RYA mag this month, I think this was it
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/current-affairs/Pages/no-deal-Brexit-scenario.aspx

 

[Heckler]

I'm not sure of what part you are saying that I'm being complacent?
I am definitely not going to try and pre-empt what our, or the EU politicians decide for us all, especially with the movement of peoples by air, craft or vehicle.
Rightly or wrongly, my plan is to go with whatever is dished out and if necessary take it on the chin, then we'll see what my alternatives are.
For me I see no point in trying to outrun something that in all probability won't happen. I feel sure eventually commerce will rule over all else, even with the idiots in suits that sit in parliaments.
Sorry but if the above is complacent, so be it . . . . I'm complacent!!

A pragmatist like us, do what we have done, temprary residence for 5 years

 

[Garold]

I think that's very complacent. If you own property in an EU country there is obviously a better chance that the country will make special arrangement for a while for Brits, but if you simply keep your boat in the Med and cruise from one country to another then what special arrangement could be made?

At the moment it's easy and frictionless both for your boat and yourselves.

I am alert to any news on this too.

It would seem that for those of us that are doing just this, cruising the Med with a British VAT paid boat (of a significant value) and staying on our boats for more than 90 days in any 180, life will not continue unchanged and we may wish to make strategic decisions regarding the future value of our boats.

For most in this situation Brexit will cause us to change lifestyle. Sadly there aren’t many of us so I doubt that we will get a clear picture until pretty late in the day. But some of us would like to groom our plans to best advantage.

Garold

 

[grumpygit]

[QUOTE=Joker;6710772
The question is whether British boats, which have paid VAT in the EU (when Britain was a member), will retain their VAT status within the EU. The short answer is no.


It would therefore appear, from the response of the EU Commission, that any UK boat in the UK at the time of Brexit, automatically loses its VAT status within Europe.

________________________________________________________________________________

I am sorry but I just can not see this happening. I really do believe that if your boats VAT has been paid pre brexit in to the European Union coffers via the UK, it will be classed as paid post brexit.
I also feel there could be a very good legal challenge if such an attempt was made.
I would also assume a boat being purchased post brexit will be a completely different story, and this will probably will arise in a new topic at some point.
Whatever is supposed to be coming out of EU commission I am taking it with a pinch of salt, and bracketed as project fear.
I don't think any of the establishments are thinking very hard of our situations, I think at the moment they have much greater concerns.
OK I don't doubt that things will change at some point, may be there will be a catch up time for me but the way Greece normally operates I won't be holding my breath or losing any sleep because of it.
By all means, if one feels happier taking undocumented measures to try and protect your positions I see no harm in doing this.
I have had boats in the UK, Spain, Italy and Greece, and in the latter we almost live as full time holiday makers, 8 years cruising and now 3 years in bricks and mortar with a small SSR registered yacht on a permanent mooring .
In all this time, I have never been asked (nor anyone else I know) any questions in the UK or the EU about VAT on any of the 3 boats I owned within the EU.
We own and use a UK registered car, again no questions ever asked. I also have never been tackled about how much block time I have spent in a host country.
I have never had a problem with the using of the EHIC of which I have had to use a few times and I can say I was treated very well.
As I have already been accused of complacency, I am trying not to come across as such but more with pragmatism as in sharing my thoughts and experience. I am of the thoughts that our lives are not going change too much after the Withdrawal.

 

[st599]

We own and use a UK registered car, again no questions ever asked. I also have never been tackled about how much block time I have spent in a host country.
I have never had a problem with the using of the EHIC of which I have had to use a few times and I can say I was treated very well.
As I have already been accused of complacency, I am trying not to come across as such but more with pragmatism as in sharing my thoughts and experience. I am of the thoughts that our lives are not going change too much after the Withdrawal.

Why would you be asked about the amount of time you've spent in an EU country or for IDPs? It's only after Brexit that the 90 in 180 and new driving rules will become active.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

As to the question of VAT paid in the UK I think you are correct. Part of any VAT payment of any member state goes to the EU thus the EU have benefited from the payment and recognised it. It may eventually take a class action in the ECJ but it seems very clear to me. The VAT status will or should be retained providing the boat is not taken out of the EU for 3 years or more so vessels that are permanently based in EU waters should not have a problem. Nor should those that visit from the UK providing that they do it at least once every 3 years and can prove it by receipt.