VAT and Certificat de radiation de Pavillion

[charlie340]

I'm just getting back into boat ownership after educating children etc and it seems that VAT is a bit of a hot topic. I am very interested in a boat that was bought in France but a bit wary of the paperwork.

She is part 3 registered and I have seen this Certificat de radiation de Pavillion which seems to say that the French authorities don't have any interest in the boat. Does this mean that VAT or TVA has been paid? The emails between the current and previous owner seem to confirm that this Certificat de radiation de Pavillion is the piece of paper you need.

I intend to head across the channel and I'd rather not pick up a bill for several thousand euro.

Anyone out there with any experience of this?

 

[Imperial One]

Charlie,

In very simplistic terms the way the French system works is that everyone pays the VAT on a boat.
Then, if you have a legitimate reason to reclaim it you can try.

What this means in reality is that the vast majority of French Owned boats have had VAT paid BUT you do still need to have a piece of paper proving this.

Normally it is an invoice showing VAT paid or sometimes we have seen a certificate of payment.

If you are buying through a broker he should be able to get together copies of all the papers you need to see, if not ask the seller for copies of all the papers and I will happily take a look at them for you, just give me a call or pm me.

Mike.

 

[Tranona]

I'm just getting back into boat ownership after educating children etc and it seems that VAT is a bit of a hot topic. I am very interested in a boat that was bought in France but a bit wary of the paperwork.

She is part 3 registered and I have seen this Certificat de radiation de Pavillion which seems to say that the French authorities don't have any interest in the boat. Does this mean that VAT or TVA has been paid? The emails between the current and previous owner seem to confirm that this Certificat de radiation de Pavillion is the piece of paper you need.

I intend to head across the channel and I'd rather not pick up a bill for several thousand euro.

Anyone out there with any experience of this?

No, not directly. The only "evidence" that VAT has been paid is the original receipt. However, if you buy the boat directly from a private EU citizen then no VAT is payable. Your Bill of Sale should show that the seller is selling free of all encumberance. The fact that it is on the SSR suggests the owner is UK resident, so if you buy it in UK any VAT issues will be the responsibility of HMRC.

It is not easy for a privately owned boat that has spent all its life in the EU to avoid VAT. Non payment of VAT is usually related to boats owned by VAT registered companies, used commercially or have spent time outside the EU. VAT is not an asset tax, but a tax on transactions so a boat could have VAT charged on it more than once. For example if it left the EU and was sold outside the EU, it would normally be liable for VAT if re-imported by an EU resident.

Having said all that, if your searches show that the boat has a good trail of private ownership and kept in the EU, then the chances of any VAT irregularities in the past are very small. The absence of a receipt is a nuisance, but no more than that. There is no legal requirement to keep it and the likelihood of ever being asked to "prove" VAT has been paid is also very small. You will be no different from many thousands of boat owners who do not have the VAT receipt for their boat.

There is a good section on the RYA site explaining the ins and outs of VAT.

 

[charlie340]

Thanks for the info. There isn't an original 'new' invoice but Sunseeker confirm the boat was supplied to Sunseeker Germany and has been in the EU all its life. All emails between previous owner and current indicate that TVA was paid and uk customs had no interest in the boat when it was imported in 2007.

 

[carlton]

Charlie - I too bought a boat which had originally been registered in France.

Did your boat come with a document stating 'Acte de Francisation'?

 

[Tranona]

and uk customs had no interest in the boat when it was imported in 2007.

Well, they wouild not have any interest as the boat was not "imported" - just moved from one EU state to another. They are only interested in boats coming from outside the EU.

You could ask Sunseeker Germany for a copy of their copy of the original invoice to the first owner. Not everybody keeps them as the legal requirement for the VAT registered trader is only to keep them for 6 years. However, another forumite posting on a similar subject last week got a copy from Fairline for a 1989 boat.

 

[charlie340]

Yes apparently it does have an acte de francisation. Sadly the Company Sunseeker germany no longer exists so that a dead end.

I think i'm ok but I haven't seen all the paperwork yet.

Thanks

 

[carlton]

Yes apparently it does have an acte de francisation. Sadly the Company Sunseeker germany no longer exists so that a dead end.

I think i'm ok but I haven't seen all the paperwork yet.

Thanks

Can't guarantee it'll work for you, but on my 'Acte de Francisation' was an official stamp of the 'Douanes' (Customs) office who authorised it - in my case, Sete in the South of France. I tracked them down online and, using Google translate, e-mailed them asking for a copy of the original receipt proving v.a.t. had been paid.

They were most helpful and obliging, sending me a copy both by e-mail and in the post, together with a letter confirming no v.a.t. was due - all at no cost to myself.

Of course, should you be stopped by the French customs guys it should be quite reassuring to hand over the letter and say, 'Your boss sent me this'.

 

[charlie340]

Carlton
Just back from a trip. Thanks for the info, sounds like a plan!

 

[carlton]

Charlie - P.M. sent.

 

[westernman]

The acte de francisation is roughly the French equivalent to a part I registration and confirms among other things that all required taxes (including VAT) have been paid and that the boat meets certain safety standards. The owner must be either French or resident in France.

The certificat de radiation de Pavillion means the boat has been deregistered. In France when you sell a boat you will deregister it, then the new owner is expected to re-register it (pretty much the same as for a Part I over here). To re-register the new owner has to present the certificat de radiation de Pavillion

If the boat is not deregistered, the registered owner will continue to pay the yearly tax!