Used boats: the older the better - WTF?

[MapisM]

I've been looking around for used boats recently, with a rather open mind, both in terms of size and age.
For the first, eventually we restricted the range to 52'-58'. We started looking also at something a bit bigger, mostly because there are some fantastic boats on the market (like the SL62 and the VZ18, to name just a couple) at very reasonable prices, but eventually swmbo decided that there's a limit to how much we appreciate the additional space, vs. the other drawbacks of larger boats.
For the latter (age), I limited the search to 1990+, the upper limit being more dictated by the budget, rather than the age. So, we saw several boats in a pretty wide vintage range, the older being actually built in 1989 (only exception to the 1990+ rule), and the most recent in 2008.

Now, enough with the premises - and before anyone ask, nope, we didn't find anything yet that convinced us to move ahead from the old tub.

The reason for this thread is that during this search, where I checked out a lot of boats of several yards, built during an almost 20 years timeframe, there's one thing that stroke me as very evident: older boats were built better, in most if not all respects.
I mean, forget the obvious fact that the price of a boat built in the early 90s is lower than the price of a boat built 10 years ago, aotbe.
I'm strictly talking of build quality: materials, workmanship, attention to details, solidity, durability - you name it.
And I found this to be true, with just minor differences, for all the yards I considered - mostly IT, but also Brits.
Suffice to say that the two better boats we found were built in 1996 and 1999, and I don't mean better in terms of value for money (though that's also a consideration, obviously), but in absolute terms.

Now, I'm curious to hear if anyone else shares my experience.
And if yes, I wonder how boatbuilders can continue to think that shortcuts like the so called minimalist interiors (which should more aptly be called Ikea inspired) are the best answer to the shrinking market, when anyone interested in a boat (unless willing to go new for the sake of it, or for customization wishes, etc.) can buy a better boat for a fraction of what they hope to charge for a new one which is, in most respects, an inferior product... :ambivalence:

 

[BruceK]

LOL. I seem to remember having this debate with you and a few others a good few months back and everyone just said I was being a wise ass.

 

[Portofino]

@MapisM -have you seen @recent shows new Ferretti products like Riva and Itama and Pershing - still build like brick outhouses oozing quality fittings and details , but only Bulid /sell a few these days compared to the 90,s and early noughties .But i think they still cut it quality build wise -that's a Ferretti thing -just .

I too get in the engine room and start lifting floor panals ,open the anchor locker , etc -

Broadly agree with your sentiments .Today more of a floating appartment ,lifestyle , image , gadget ,laden thing -which has to appeal to today's buyer who perhaps places sea keeping /longevity /maintenance going forwards ,low down in the pecking order of buying decision process.

 

[MapisM]

LOL. I seem to remember having this debate with you and a few others a good few months back and everyone just said I was being a wise ass.

Can you find that thread, by chance?
It wouldn't be the first time that my memory doesn't serve me well, but I can't for the life of me remember to have said anything along those lines...
...Also because I had the same impression well before my recent boat search, which just confirmed my thinking and inspired this thread!

 

[MapisM]

@MapisM -have you seen @recent shows new Ferretti products like Riva and Itama and Pershing - still build like brick outhouses oozing quality fittings and details

Well, I haven't attended any boat show recently, but I did see a brand new F550 not long ago, and aside from the nice Cummins engines, I wasn't impressed...
...not to mention that you could find a lovely F175, which is a larger and (imho) much better built boat for about ONE TENTH of a new F550 price.
If that isn't a no brainer, tell me what else is!

 

[paul salliss]

@MapisM -have you seen @recent shows new Ferretti products like Riva and Itama and Pershing - still build like brick outhouses oozing quality fittings and details , but only Bulid /sell a few these days compared to the 90,s and early noughties .But i think they still cut it quality build wise -that's a Ferretti thing -just .

I too get in the engine room and start lifting floor panals ,open the anchor locker , etc -

Broadly agree with your sentiments .Today more of a floating appartment ,lifestyle , image , gadget ,laden thing -which has to appeal to today's buyer who perhaps places sea keeping /longevity /maintenance going forwards ,low down in the pecking order of buying decision process.

I agree, I have over time come to appreciate the more traditional " boat look" which is scarce these days, a lot of the modern styling looks great at boat shows, but to me it's just posh IKEA, sofas that are very uncomfortable, sharp edge joinery ( which has no place on a boat), and I don't like All this dark satin woodwork, etc etc, but I must be in the minority as that what the public seem to want. With Broom you can choose, between modern and classic so that way you can't complain at all.

 

[Greg2]

I agree that older boats tend to have a better build quality, but then I am biased. Our 1992 Broom 41 is is very well built and with internal teak woodwork that is simply a joy to behold. We couldn't afford a similar sized new boat, so it is a bit of an academic point, but if we could I am less than convinced that we would change what we have for a brand new model.

 

[BruceK]

Can you find that thread, by chance?
It wouldn't be the first time that my memory doesn't serve me well, but I can't for the life of me remember to have said anything along those lines...
...Also because I had the same impression well before my recent boat search, which just confirmed my thinking and inspired this thread!

Ive searched and cant find it either. Maybe its me who has dropped a marble or two. Somewhere amongst the plethora of threads re big 3 forgetting average Joe, factory refurbs and Bavaria. I thought it madness to buy new when a 10 plus year old could be bought at massive fraction of the original cost and arguably as good still as new.

 

[MapisM]

Ive searched and cant find it either. Maybe its me who has dropped a marble or two. Somewhere amongst the plethora of threads re big 3 forgetting average Joe, factory refurbs and Bavaria. I thought it madness to buy new when a 10 plus year old could be bought at massive fraction of the original cost and arguably as good still as new.

Aha, now I understand - and remember that thread, too.
I suppose this is your comment that you were referring to, but if you re-check the thread, I had nothing to argue against what you said - let alone suggesting that you were a wise ass! :encouragement:

 

[BruceK]

No, and I repeat it was not you that implied that. Nor was it said in a derogatory sense. Memory is a funny thing. I think it was this post

 

[MapisM]

Aaah, yeah. Now I remember that one, too. All agreed.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I think it depends which builders you look at, but in your perspective most of it (90%) is totally correct.
In your perspective to make it fair you also have to know the history of the builder, was it still owned by the same person who build boats in the 90s and so on so forth.

For example I think if you see a Posillipo 65 Technema build in 2007 to a Posillipo build in 1997 the quality is more or less the same. Even though Rizzardi was trying to go up the ladder to bring interest from a a few hedge funders.....

A lot of unfortunate things happened in the boating World (especially Italian one) from 2005 - 2008, the industry was growing at huge % (double digits in Italy from 2001 till 2008) and every financier with a bit of sense was trying to jump on the boat. Literally. Some boat builders thought as this an opportunity to expand themselves and conquer more the market others to retire early. Take your pick!

I think VZ was still building nice boats at that time, and the quality of a 90s build to a 2006 is not a big difference.
Interesting I also think the Itama's build in the subsequent Bulgari take over 2002 - 2004 where the best Itama.
They still kept the Amati team and just added more luxury and finishing to the brand.
Ferretti Itama's kept the panache of the brand, also improved the Wow factor, but go marina talking in Rome - Naples area and you know the rest.
New ones are not bad boats, but may be they lost the Tank fame the old ones had.

I was in Capri in end July last year and interesting I think I only saw five of the new Itama Ferretti Group there, while of the old ones and Bulgari era I think I totaled a count of about 50.
Must be for a reason since most of these boats do daily charter if people are sticking with the old ones.

 

[MapisM]

That's a connoisseur analysis indeed W - not that I expected anything less, from yourself. :encouragement:
Just to better explain my views, with reference to your specific examples:

- Technema: I've only seen a 60', 1998 vintage, so I can't make a proper "age-related" comparison. Btw, we mostly ruled her out for size reasons, but build quality was indeed good. There's a 55' near Rome which looks nice on paper (and just the right size), but I didn't yet manage to go see her...

- VZ: agreed. If I should tell which builders are, at least to a large extent, an exception to the rule in my title, VZ, DP and SL would probably be the ones. Shame that only one of them survived....

- Itamas: I've seen a few in the past, but I happily take your word for them, because they weren't included in my recent search, that was focused on f/b boats.

 

[scubaman]

- VZ: agreed. If I should tell which builders are, at least to a large extent, an exception to the rule in my title, VZ, DP and SL would probably be the ones. Shame that only one of them survived....

A bit off the topic maybe and in fact I know very little of the marques mentioned here, but just by looking at the video of the Sanlorenzo SL86 you get a feeling of a very high quality product.

 

[MapisM]

Yep K, and rightly so. Trust me, your feeling would be 100% confirmed in the flesh.
They aren't one of the very few top dogs who survived for nothing...

 

[Hardmy]

Very very interesting post MapisM. I haven't such long experience in boating than you, but I had the same feeling after having had visited many used boats in Italy. What surprises me, is that you don't mention Uniesse. What is your opinion about them?

 

[BartW]

Now, I'm curious to hear if anyone else shares my experience.
And if yes, I wonder how boatbuilders can continue to think that shortcuts like the so called minimalist interiors (which should more aptly be called Ikea inspired) are the best answer to the shrinking market, when anyone interested in a boat (unless willing to go new for the sake of it, or for customization wishes, etc.) can buy a better boat for a fraction of what they hope to charge for a new one which is, in most respects, an inferior product... :ambivalence:

I don't have many opjective reasons, but to some extend I share your observations,
in many modern boats I miss some of the art of pure crafmanship, on interiors, aswel as on some technical installations.
today a lot of attention goes to efficient building and cost saving, (nevertheless some of it with a positive outcome on quality)
As mentioned before I don't like some of the modern plastic finishing, and especially not many modern interiors.
I must admid that I also don't like some older wooden interiors (Hatteras fe.)

as you say there are exceptions, as I have seen myself at the SL factory , or some time back in the Canados Factory (I read the yard has new owners and is reopened again.. !)
and even Fairline had impressed me positively with what we have seen from the in build pictures on here.

but anyway I agree that there are some nice old treasures around,
I used to call them "character" boats

 

[Sailorsam101]

At the London boat show i looked all over a new Broom thingy...both me and the Mrs were left with the impression of cheap parts inside and that looked like they would not last long.

The attention to detail seemed to be on style and not quality...think Ikea!

Compared to our 25 year old Targa 33..that looks used but everything is still there and works as of day one.

So yes...older boats are much better built.

 

[Nautorius]

I have to agree with older boats if kept in good condition are such a better boat. The older Baia are just stunning value for their quality and most have been lavished with affection like these

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1997/Baia-43-2826490/France#.VzH1B49OLIU

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2000/Baia-Baia-Zero-2716820/Italy#.VzH1l49OLIU

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/2002/Cantieri-Di-Baia-Zero-2914456/Italy#.VzH10I9OLIU

Probably get them for £50k ish.....just Wow. That is the price of a 2000 FLTarga 30 or S28

 

[jfm]

I think I only half agree with the premise that older=better built. Maybe the great quality older stuff has survived better while the dross is just green an mouldy somewhere, so itis a statistically invalid observation. Not sure. I think there is great quality as well as bad quality among both new stuff and old stuff, and so the good quality found in older boats is because the boat was built well not because it is old. I mean, I think the correlation between good and old is a false correlation or an illusion

MM, I'd be interested in what you think very specifically is good quality in older boats. New engines are surely better. Bonded windows are surely better than framed ones (?). A new oven/dishwasher/airco unit/MFD is better than an old one. I don't agree that old grp/resin is better and have never seen evidence that good grp old hulls are better than good grp new hulls. So is it just the furniture that you find better?