UKHO backs down on paper chart withdrawal

[zoidberg]

To be fair, USGS mapping in Antarctica is some of the best. But for the USA it doesn't even come close to the quality of OS mapping. I think - vague recollection - that the USGS did initiate a country wide aerial photo campaign, but I've no idea whether it actually happened.

For those who ask, "Can't you just use satellite imagery", the answer is yes and no. You can use it for feature mapping, and you can extract elevation data from it. But in the latter case, the accuracy is low. Also, high resolution (metre scale) satellite images are expensive, though cheaper than aerial photography.

Many are unaware of the huge strides in 'capability' that have taken place in the several decades since my comments in #36 were valid and there are still areas where high resolution satellite imagery is not yet ( freely ) available.... probably 'cos no-one is particularly interested enough in those areas.

In the particular example referenced above, there were no Aids to Navigation available other than eyeball, except a single low-power Non Directional radio Beacon ( NDB ) was to be placed by an SF team, for an hour, to provide an accurate Start Point for the 300nm low-level sector after a descent from altitude in the dark. After that, it was Heading, Time and Eyeball.

Amateurs rely on a complex of electronics. Professionals use all the tools to ensure the job gets done right, first time.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Many are unaware of the huge strides in 'capability' that have taken place in the several decades since my comments in #36 were valid and there are still areas where high resolution satellite imagery is not yet ( freely ) available.... probably 'cos no-one is particularly interested enough in those areas.

In the particular example referenced above, there were no Aids to Navigation available other than eyeball, except a single low-power Non Directional radio Beacon ( NDB ) was to be placed by an SF team, for an hour, to provide an accurate Start Point for the 300nm low-level sector after a descent from altitude in the dark. After that, it was Heading, Time and Eyeball.

Amateurs rely on a complex of electronics. Professionals use all the tools to ensure the job gets done right, first time.

It's surprising where you do get high resolution images, though. Of course, the highest resolution for which there definitely is global cover freely available is 15m Landsat ECM data. But there is significant cover for out-of-the-way places like South Georgia! Also, high-resolution (1-2m) data are not usually available free, as Landsat ECM is.

 

[ylop]

The “digital data” that the UKHO holds is all in vector format, per the international standards for IHO chart data. It needs both computer and skilled human intervention to convert into the raster images that can be Printed on Demand as paper charts.

As the UKHO has already largely outsourced physical printing to third parties, it is presumably the cost of creating the raster chart images that UKHO was trying to save in their original announcement (which was all about cost saving).
Though not mentioned in the original announcements, I believe the UKHO intention is/was to discontinue the electronic raster charts as well, hence it was the Print on Demand paper chart service that was proposed to be discontinued by 2026 (now 2030).

to me that is just a market opportunity for someone to license the UKHO data and provide this service that we are all apparently desperate to make use of.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

This again?

We are on the cliff's edge of a major war in Europe, or at least a hardening of military attitudes between NATO and Russia, which might lead to strange happening to electronic navigation systems.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Yes I get that people need to learn but that doesn’t mean every single boat needs the tools on board to use every outdated method of navigation. GPS has proven extremely reliable and is quite suitable as an alternative. If the coding required at least one method of position fixing that would be fine. I’d imagine the majority of coded boats are charters that anchor within 10 miles of home every day.

It's a good way to keep your brain cells alive.

 

[lustyd]

We are on the cliff's edge of a major war in Europe, or at least a hardening of military attitudes between NATO and Russia, which might lead to strange happening to electronic navigation systems.

And you think that when that kicks off you'll be...sailing?

 

[lustyd]

It's a good way to keep your brain cells alive.

But not the only way, and it shouldn't be mandatory to have the ability to draw a cocked hat with all three lines going through the position you already know you're in. There's no need for the lines, you can just confirm that objects are on the bearing they should be. Hardly keeping brain cells alive.

 

[zoidberg]

It all seems so superfluous, yon navigation knowhow that took centuries of development by a large number of very competent and skilled people.
I wonder what is added into the Weetabix the above well-known member has for breakfast to enhance his understanding so much....

 

[zoidberg]

Navigation happens between the ears - not on an MFD or a chart table.

 

[Bilgediver]

I'm pleased to read that. So much so, I may well go and grab me a handful of 'retail therapy' in the shape of..... cough, cough.... new charts I actually pay for!

Half of mine are B&W in fathoms. With cutesy little pen 'n ink landscapes along the margins. Anyone else remember them?

And patches where chartlet corrections have been pasted on.

 

[Bilgediver]

Navigation happens between the ears - not on an MFD or a chart table.

Not much use if you then take it to bed while others try to navigate

 

[zoidberg]

Not much use if you then take it to bed while others try to navigate

I've been on boats where 'tyros' tried that. Often resulted in '"ake up! Wake up! The battery's died, we've no navigation lights, no GPS, no sounder, no radio..... and we don't know where we are. What are you going to do?"

"I'll put the kettle on....."

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Indeed, so why insist the boat have such specific equipment? It’s not unreasonable to suggest the coding is out of date, times move on.
If you can’t read Ogham that’s on you.

kevin murray sent you 1 item

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

But not the only way, and it shouldn't be mandatory to have the ability to draw a cocked hat with all three lines going through the position you already know you're in. There's no need for the lines, you can just confirm that objects are on the bearing they should be. Hardly keeping brain cells alive.

I refer to the whole process of paper-based navigation, as per the Yachtmaster curriculum, as opposed to the passive use of electronic methods.

 

[Luminescent]

And you think that when that kicks off you'll be...sailing?

I for one will definitely be on my boat getting the hell out of dodge.

 

[lustyd]

I refer to the whole process of paper-based navigation, as per the Yachtmaster curriculum, as opposed to the passive use of electronic methods.

Passive use?? Might be your prejudice leaking out into the world a bit there?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Passive use?? Might be your prejudice leaking out into the world a bit there?

Might be

 

[Beneteau381]

This is so low down my list of requirements. If the built in GPS is broken I'll enter the coordinates from one of the other 10 devices on board. In fact, most of those items seem like a waste of time for most of us.

Till Putin pushes the button!

 

[lustyd]

Till Putin pushes the button!

Again though, it's not likely, and even if it happens sailing won't be an issue. There are multiple GNSS systems in place these days, it's just not worth considering as a problem given how unlikely it is. I've said before on these forums, even if GNSS satelites are all blown out of the sky we won't go back to paper as it would be trivial to make an electronic celestial navigation solution and build it in to the boat. Many already have the components required (camera, 9 axis accelerometer, MFD, charts), and most are only lacking the camera. Simple calibration for height of camera and some angles would be all that's needed to do the maths.
Arguably electronic celestial navigation would already be a better option than GNSS, and potentially more accurate since it could get a fix on every star in the sky simultaneously rather than relying on a handful of satellites. I suspect the only reason we've not made the switch is that it's slightly less reliable due to weather.

 

[capnsensible]

Many already have the components required (camera, 9 axis accelerometer, MFD, charts), and most are only lacking the camera. Simple calibration for height of camera and some angles would be all that's needed to do the maths.

Yeah I've got all that stuff, been wondering what to do with it.