UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[macd]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

This might be on interest. It's certainly one to watch.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-law-proposed-to-safeguard-uk-citizens-healthcare-abroad-after-brexit?utm_source=00d6f092-7cb6-49d1-a7d0-c2c16dc8b5f7&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate

Incidentally, we have just used the DWP S1 form (as pensioners) to transfer our healthcare to the Greek EFKA national system (it used to be called IKA). It's a pretty torturous process but if anyone wants to know how to do it PM me.

Thanks, Tony. That crept by with little attention and is good news. The release is a little ambiguous, in that it looks as though the continuation of EHIC requires EU agreement whilst S1 cover (which is effectively a commitment by HMG to pay for foreign healthcare), does not. But maybe I'm misinterpreting the release.

You'll be aware, but others might not be, that another benefit of S1 is that it also gives an absolute entitlement to continued UK NHS healthcare for expats. It really is a no-brainer for anyone eligible.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

You'll be aware, but others might not be, that another benefit of S1 is that it also gives an absolute entitlement to continued UK NHS healthcare for expats. It really is a no-brainer for anyone eligible.

Unless I'm missing something, the S1 is for people who have emigrated as opposed to those such as Nortada and myself who spend some time abroad but do not want the UK to know we're absent. As far as Portugal is concerned, I took my residence card to the local health centre (Centro de Saude) and had no problem registering with a doctor. Being registered entitles treatment at any health centre but Faro often refuse, telling non-locals to go to emergency at the hospital where waiting times when busy can be up to 20 hours.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

The S1 is available to UK citizens who are in receipt of a state pension and who are permanently emigrating to another EU country. When you call the DWP to request the S1 form they will ask you the date you left the UK.

The letter that accompanies the S1 form states that you retain the right to return to the UK for all treatment and can access NHS treatment in England as if ordinarily resident (it says these changes will be made for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales as soon as practicable after 6th April 2015, so this may already have been done).

It also says you can apply for an EHIC if you intend to visit EU countries other than Greece and the UK.

It's a no-brainer (though in Greece there are a lot of hoops to jump through and it takes time to do that)..

 

[JumbleDuck]

If there are up to 50,000 Brits living under the radar in Portugal, just do the arithmetic. If each spent only 1000 euros a year there, and if they
each spent 10,000 a year. Would any country, even the most administratively finicky, risk losing this local business??

There are five million Poles living in the UK and half the country seems to want to lose their business.

 

[macd]

There are five million Poles living in the UK and half the country seems to want to lose their business.

Can't fault your argument, but your numbers are nonsense: at the time of the referendum the Office of National Statistics estimated there to be around 0.9 million Polish-born UK residents.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

The S1 is available to UK citizens who are in receipt of a state pension and who are permanently emigrating to another EU country. When you call the DWP to request the S1 form they will ask you the date you left the UK.

The letter that accompanies the S1 form states that you retain the right to return to the UK for all treatment and can access NHS treatment in England as if ordinarily resident (it says these changes will be made for Scotland, Ireland, and Wales as soon as practicable after 6th April 2015, so this may already have been done)..

There seem to be different standards being applied by UK National Health. We've met a couple of people who have been away sailing for extended periods (2+ years in both cases) who have been refused treatment in the UK when they have returned/visited, being told they had to be resident for 6 months before getting back into the system. I doubt they were of pensionable age and hadn't emigrated as such, had just sold up, cut ties and gone sailing.

 

[macd]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

There seem to be different standards being applied by UK National Health. We've met a couple of people who have been away sailing for extended periods (2+ years in both cases) who have been refused treatment in the UK when they have returned/visited, being told they had to be resident for 6 months before getting back into the system. I doubt they were of pensionable age and hadn't emigrated as such, had just sold up, cut ties and gone sailing.

That's by no means unusual. I believe the NHS now defines entitlement by "normally/ordinarily resident" rather than the 183 days p.a. test which, whilst more easily understood, has been found wanting in legal basis. Normally resident is, of course, less tightly defined (in fact it's not well defined at all), but generally easier for many people to meet. Somewhere on-line there's an NHS document spelling out the entitlement test in more detail, although a quick google didn't find it just now.**

S1 is a special case, available mainly, so far as this forum's concerned, to state pensioners. (Other classes, such as students, workers etc may also be eligible.) S1 is available solely to people formally resident in a specific EU country other than their 'native' one. It also entitles you to an EHIC card issued by that native country. Only since 2014 (I think, but see Tony's post above regarding Scotland, Wales, NI) has it also conferred an automatic right to NHS treatment back in the UK, so the people you mention my have struck out, anyway.

** P.S. Haven't found the document I had in mind, but have found this: "An Ordinarily Resident is a PERSON who is Ordinarily Resident in the United Kingdom and cannot be charged for NHS hospital healthcare...Ordinary Residence means, broadly, living in the UK on a lawful, voluntary and properly settled basis for the time being."
So that would seem to apply to anyone returning to live in the UK (after, say, a world cruise), but not to temporary visitors.

Elsewhere on the NHS website it states that you are eligible to free healthcare if:
"You can provide evidence that you have returned to the UK with right of abode to resume permanent residence", which would , I presume, have covered your examples.

P.P.S. Found it! This is the document I had in mind, which is official Dept of Health guidance for staff in assessing normally resident/ordinarily resident/establishment/settlement...:ambivalence:... https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/736849/Ordinary_residence_tool.pdf
See, in particular, 9E near the foot of the tabulated section.

 

[Graham376]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

You beat me to it! Have just found that document on line. As you say, section 9 is interesting and Section 8 also says - However, owning or renting property overseas will not prevent a person being ordinarily resident in the UK if they can demonstrate that they are in the UK for a settled purpose. It is possible to be ordinarily resident on more than one place at once.

No doubt the EU based residence rules are something else being incorporated into UK law so unlikely to change.

P.S. In the two cases I mentioned about refused treatment, I suspect the people concerned unwittingly let it be known they were only back in the UK temporarily rather than pretending to be settled.

 

[macd]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

Yes, Graham. That seems to be a bit of a sea-change in Dept of Health practice. I seem to remember quite a few posts about denial of NHS treatment a few years ago, but haven't noticed it recently. At least, I hope that's the state of affairs. Coincidentally (or not), SSR eligibilty criteria have changed in a similar way: 'ordinarily resident' qualification rather than 183 days p.a.

 

[Tony Cross]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

There seem to be different standards being applied by UK National Health. We've met a couple of people who have been away sailing for extended periods (2+ years in both cases) who have been refused treatment in the UK when they have returned/visited, being told they had to be resident for 6 months before getting back into the system. I doubt they were of pensionable age and hadn't emigrated as such, had just sold up, cut ties and gone sailing.

FYI. The relevant page from the accompanying letter, it's the S1 entitlement that keep NHS cover in the UK....

 

[Graham376]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

FYI. The relevant page from the accompanying letter, it's the S1 entitlement that keep NHS cover in the UK....

Yes, it's clear that someone who formally emigrates can still receive NHS treatment with S1 but unfair that someone who decides to go sailing (or driving around) for a couple of years can be refused, despite many years of contributions.

 

[nortada]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

FYI. The relevant page from the accompanying letter, it's the S1 entitlement that keep NHS cover in the UK....

Rather than expat Brits right across the EU, I note that this accompanying letter relates only to folk who have moved to Greece so probably is a direct response to an issue that originated there. Logically the same rules would apply to all expats?

 

[greeny]

Jordan
Thanks for this information about non EU applying for residency. I am British but recognise a lot of the requirements as things i was asked to produce when obtaining my residency at Lagoa 3 years ago. It would appear that Lagoa are not differentiating between EU and non EU applicants and are asking for the full list for everyone regardless of origin.
Or maybe, as is often the case here, the person dealing with my case was either ill-informed or just bloody minded and decided to give me the run around.
I am going to the camara with my wife to get her residency in 2 weeks time-ish so it will interesting to see what their requirements are for her. I'll report back on the outcome.

just on the separate point of there being no rush to get residency, apparently its estimated there are between 40 and 50 thousand Brits living in Portugal at the moment who are not registered and fly under the radar here. If they all suddenly decide to go for residency there may be backlogs and big queues. I'd advise people to go and get it as soon as they can before the rush occurs.

...................................................................................................................................................................................................
Ok, so I went to the Lagoa Camera today with my wife to get residency for her.
After queuing for almost 3 hours we got our slot at the desk.
Lady was very helpful but didn't speak any English so we had to rely on my very poor Portuguese.
The process now is all done on the computer and as she was typing we had a second screen on our side of the desk so we could see/check the inputting and spelling was all ok. No paper forms to fill in.
She needed my wife's fiscal card, passport, proof of address in Portugal, the document we had previously obtained from our village council stating she had lived in the village for at least 6 months which had to be countersigned by 2 portuguese residents who were on the electoral roll, and a copy of our bank statement showing we had income and outgoings in Portugal. This list is somewhat more extensive than I hear some other cameras are asking for although I don't understand how a national online system can require different evidence from one town to the next. I didn't press this point as the objective was to get the residency and I didn't want to upset the lady who was being extremely helpful.
She filled the online form in and when complete she printed off the residency document there and then. (the one with the ring of stars on). We then had to pay the fee at another desk which came to 30 euros inc. iva.
We were then told to come back tomorrow at 2 o'clock as the document now has to go "upstairs" and be signed by someone important? in the council and would not be ready until then.
Before I left I asked her if the process for my wife would have been the same had she been American (non EU). She answered with the help of an english speaking colleague that it was not the same and that the non EU process was much more involved.
Much easier than when i completed mine 4 years ago but still needing more proof than it seems Lagos camera is asking for.
Anyway, lets see what tomorrow brings. Hopefully we'll get the document signed and sealed tomorrow at 2 o'clock.

 

[nortada]

Possibly the nub is, there are 2 levels of residency, a 5 year temporary certificate of residence (issued by câmaras - local councils) and permanent residencia (issued by the national immigration authorities).

Yesterday, I was advised by a long stay expat (+18 years) that permanent residencia only lasted for 10 years - then it had to be renewed?

Just to highlight the differences, my observations in red

Ok, so I went to the Lagoa Camera today with my wife to get residency for her.
After queuing for almost 3 hours we got our slot at the desk. No queuing - whole process completed in less than 30 mins.

Lady was very helpful but didn't speak any English so we had to rely on my very poor Portuguese.

The process now is all done on the computer and as she was typing we had a second screen on our side of the desk so we could see/check the inputting and spelling was all ok. No paper forms to fill in. Process completely paper initiated from the application form.

She needed my wife's fiscal card, passport, proof of address in Portugal, the document we had previously obtained from our village council stating she had lived in the village for at least 6 months which had to be countersigned by 2 Portuguese residents who were on the electoral roll, and a copy of our bank statement showing we had income and outgoings in Portugal. Confirmed that a fiscal number was not a requirement. The only documentation required was:- the application form, passport, proof of residence (berthing contract). This list is somewhat more extensive than I hear some other cameras are asking for although I don't understand how a national online system can require different evidence from one town to the next. Rather than a national online system, a 5 year temporary certificate appears to be a local câmara generated procedure. I didn't press this point as the objective was to get the residency and I didn't want to upset the lady who was being extremely helpful. ABSOLUTELY THE CORRECT PROCEDURE - NEVER ARGUE
She filled the online form in and when complete she printed off the residency document there and then. (the one with the ring of stars on). We then had to pay the fee at another desk which came to 30 euros inc. iva. payment €15 per person - no tax
We were then told to come back tomorrow at 2 o'clock as the document now has to go "upstairs" and be signed by someone important? in the council and would not be ready until then. Same form but available immediately, signed off by :- A Presidente da Câmara Municipal
Before I left I asked her if the process for my wife would have been the same had she been American (non EU). She answered with the help of an english speaking colleague that it was not the same and that the non EU process was much more involved.
Much easier than when i completed mine 4 years ago but still needing more proof than it seems Lagos camera is asking for.
Anyway, lets see what tomorrow brings. Hopefully we'll get the document signed and sealed tomorrow at 2 o'clock.

Before it is suggested, age cannot be a factor because berth holders in Lagos under 65 have got temporary residencia.

Congratulations for your perseverance - you got there in the end.

Sounds to me that the procedure you 'enjoyed' was the one to get permanent residencia?

Having established that a câmara can only issue temporary certificated to those with a residence in their câmara, then for the boating community, a winter in Lagos marina could be a solution?

The distance between Lagoa and Lagos about 15 miles!

Just highlights life in Portugal 'vive la difference' - and there are plenty of them.

Finally, given how easy it is, surprisingly few berth holders here are getting temporary residencia. The general view is - nothing will change after Brexit - just hope they are correct!

 

[macd]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

Rather than expat Brits right across the EU, I note that this accompanying letter relates only to folk who have moved to Greece so probably is a direct response to an issue that originated there. Logically the same rules would apply to all expats?

It applies specifically to the folk who happen to have moved to Greece who made the S1 application. Just as mine refers to only the folk who moved to Italy who made my application. Neither are responses to "issues" but are responses on the part of bureaucrats to eligible applicants. There's really no need to look for conspiracies, although I can understand why any agreeable news in 2018 looks intrinsically dodgy.

(Incidentally, I've found the bods at DWP to be so helpful you really do wonder if they're genetically related in any way to the rest of Whitehall.)

 

[nortada]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

It applies specifically to the folk who happen to have moved to Greece who made the S1 application. Just as mine refers to only the folk who moved to Italy who made my application. Neither are responses to "issues" but are responses on the part of bureaucrats to eligible applicants. There's really no need to look for conspiracies, although I can understand why any agreeable news in 2018 looks intrinsically dodgy.

(Incidentally, I've found the bods at DWP to be so helpful you really do wonder if they're genetically related in any way to the rest of Whitehall.)

Many thanks for clearing that up.

Rather than looking for conspiracies, I was interested why it has been issued on a country by country basis - now realize that it was dealt with on a personal basis.

Department of Work and Pensions? I understood that S1 was authority for pensioners permanently overseas to continue to use the NHS?

It would appear that a S1 is applicable to those who wish to permanently leave the UK so not really applicable to those of us, who wish sail in pastures new whilst still keeping our ties with the Old Country?

 

[macd]

Re: Open Letter To The Moderators - Please Make This Thread A Sticky.

1. Department of Work and Pensions? I understood that S1 was authority for pensioners permanently overseas to continue to use the NHS?

2. It would appear that a S1 is applicable to those who wish to permanently leave the UK so not really applicable to those of us, who wish sail in pastures new whilst still keeping our ties with the Old Country?

1. Pensioners, as I mentioned earlier, are probably the type of S1 applicant most common in the liveaboard world, but students, workers and others may also be eligible. S1 principally enables an individual to move to another country and benefit from the national healthcare service there as would a local, underwritten by the UK exchequer. In recent years it has incidentally also allowed the subject full NHS rights in the UK.

2. Of course that's the case, as has been made clear many times. (I might add that "permanently" whilst often used to define it, is not strictly true. There's nothing to stop someone returning to their original country in later years. None of us knows with certainty what the future will bring.)

Any UK resident national moving only periodically to another EEA country will ineligible for S1 but can continue to avail themself of EHIC cover, assuming agreement is reached as described in the press release in Tony's post #339.

 

[greeny]

Possibly the nub is, there are 2 levels of residency, a 5 year temporary certificate of residence (issued by câmaras - local councils) and permanent residencia (issued by the national immigration authorities).

Yesterday, I was advised by a long stay expat (+18 years) that permanent residencia only lasted for 10 years - then it had to be renewed?

Just to highlight the differences, my observations in red



Before it is suggested, age cannot be a factor because berth holders in Lagos under 65 have got temporary residencia.

Congratulations for your perseverance - you got there in the end.

Sounds to me that the procedure you 'enjoyed' was the one to get permanent residencia?

Having established that a câmara can only issue temporary certificated to those with a residence in their câmara, then for the boating community, a winter in Lagos marina could be a solution?

The distance between Lagoa and Lagos about 15 miles!

Just highlights life in Portugal 'vive la difference' - and there are plenty of them.

Finally, given how easy it is, surprisingly few berth holders here are getting temporary residencia. The general view is - nothing will change after Brexit - just hope they are correct!

Thanks for the comments nortada and agree with them. One correction in my original is that the cost for me was 15 not 30. I didn't realise that I paid as well as my wife because the lady made an address change on my residency document to update it. So it looks like 15 e for whatever you do. The procedure will result in the issue of the 5 yr document. As to the evidence required, as you say, i think it depends on the town you live in.
But all in all, one of the easier things to do in Portugal and in my opinion well worth 2 visits, 3 hrs and 15 euros if it helps after brexit. I didn't think burying our heads in the sand was a proactive approach. Hopefully we will receive the document this afternoon.

 

[nortada]

Thanks for the comments nortada and agree with them. One correction in my original is that the cost for me was 15 not 30. I didn't realise that I paid as well as my wife because the lady made an address change on my residency document to update it. So it looks like 15 e for whatever you do. The procedure will result in the issue of the 5 yr document. As to the evidence required, as you say, i think it depends on the town you live in.
But all in all, one of the easier things to do in Portugal and in my opinion well worth 2 visits, 3 hrs and 15 euros if it helps after brexit. I didn't think burying our heads in the sand was a proactive approach. Hopefully we will receive the document this afternoon.

By now you should have that coveted certificate so well done and celebrate with a few glasses of the red stuff.

 

[Graham376]

Yesterday, I was advised by a long stay expat (+18 years) that permanent residencia only lasted for 10 years - then it had to be renewed?

There are a couple of points to consider but we won't know the answers for some years and there's not much point in guessing.

5 year residence under discussion here is given to EU citizens and is a temporary fix for those who don't want to be time limited in country. What's going to happen when that runs out and people, who by then will no longer be EU citizens, apply for permanent residence?

My permanent residence card has a renewal date IIRC in about six years, maybe this is just to update photo but I don't know. The card also states on the front "citizen of the EU" and, at renewal date, I won't be and have no idea what will happen.