UK Sailors And Expats In The EU - Run Up To Friday 29th March 2019 & Beyond?

[RAI]

Then it will be a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days.
I always expected a max of 90 days in any 180 even with a deal but I thought that would only apply after the transition period but at the moment I can't find anything written about it. We will be spending the winter in Spain and it will be interesting to see what happens....

I doubt if tourists will be worried. Only if they start stamping dates in passports again, will it become serious.
People with property abroad might find they are a bit more vulnerable to checking.
Americans need no visas, but only get 90 in 180 days. Things only get checked if they cross the law.
Now if you want to work.....

 

[nortada]

Then it will be a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days.
I always expected a max of 90 days in any 180 even with a deal but I thought that would only apply after the transition period but at the moment I can't find anything written about it. We will be spending the winter in Spain and it will be interesting to see what happens....

Saw something earlier to day saying the status quo will continue for at least the transition period; that is until end of 2020.

And then?

My understanding is, that unless there is a specific exception, the Schengen rule of a maximum of 90 days in 180 would kick in.

The specific exceptions would include 'Grandfather Rights' which pre-date Schengen or the EU, or a residency permit in an EU state. It is not clear if a residency permit in one EU state would allow an unlimited stay in another EU state.

The Aliança Luso-Britânica Aliança, ratified at the Treaty of Windsor in 1386 is just one example of Grandfather Rights and I read recently a Portuguese report that stated British travelers in Portugal would never need a visa.

Only time will tell.

 

[macd]

Saw something earlier to day saying the status quo will continue for at least the transition period; that is until end of 2020.

...which will, of course, not happen in the case of a no-deal Brexit.

+1 to all the rest (save for the Aliança Luso-Britânica, on which you've merely piqued my curiosity )

 

[nortada]

...which will, of course, not happen in the case of a no-deal Brexit.

+1 to all the rest (save for the Aliança Luso-Britânica, on which you've merely piqued my curiosity )

Google Portugal- England Treaty - as I write still in force!

 

[nortada]

Questions.

If you have a Portuguese 5 year Certificado De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia does this entitle you to vote in Portuguese elections?

More to the point, while in conversation with a well versed Portuguese Gentleman, I raised the title of the Certificado and he advised that this suggested that the holder was registered as a citizen of the EU and as such, would have right of passage throughout the EU and Schengen States. I suggested that only having a British Passport could cause problems but he disagreed.

Time will tell.

 

[One A.]

Re: Questions.

If you have a Portuguese 5 year Certificado De Registo De Cidadao Da Uniao Europeia does this entitle you to vote in Portuguese elections?

More to the point, while in conversation with a well versed Portuguese Gentleman, I raised the title of the Certificado and he advised that this suggested that the holder was registered as a citizen of the EU and as such, would have right of passage throughout the EU and Schengen States. I suggested that only having a British Passport could cause problems but he disagreed.

Time will tell.

As far as voting rights go in Spain and France you can only vote at the local elections, you might want to double check that..

 

[Poignard]

This is putting me in a bit of a quandary. Next month my berthing contract in a French yard comes up for renewal. It is a rolling contract for 12 months. Do I renew it in the assumption that I will be able to travel freely to my boat or might I have to fetch her home after March 29th and lose 3/4 of my berthing fee?

My MP can't, or won't, give me an answer.

 

[macd]

This is putting me in a bit of a quandary. Next month my berthing contract in a French yard comes up for renewal. It is a rolling contract for 12 months. Do I renew it in the assumption that I will be able to travel freely to my boat or might I have to fetch her home after March 29th and lose 3/4 of my berthing fee?

My MP can't, or won't, give me an answer.

Afraid your MP is right not to give you a (definitive) answer. Neither Tusk, Junker, nor May could do any better. You will have at least 90 days after 29 March to decide your plans, so in my view a watching brief is the prudent course. Given the uncertainty, could you not chat to the yard in the hope they can be similarly flexible?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

This is putting me in a bit of a quandary. Next month my berthing contract in a French yard comes up for renewal. It is a rolling contract for 12 months. Do I renew it in the assumption that I will be able to travel freely to my boat or might I have to fetch her home after March 29th and lose 3/4 of my berthing fee?
.

Why would you want to bring her home? In a worst case scenario, you may run the risk that the boat loses its EU VAT paid status and you end up having to pay it again if you move it back into France. For that reason I'm leaving my boat in France even if my visits to it are curtailed

 

[macd]

Why would you want to bring her home? In a worst case scenario, you may run the risk that the boat loses its EU VAT paid status and you end up having to pay it again if you move it back into France. For that reason I'm leaving my boat in France even if my visits to it are curtailed

The "worst case" could be that the boat becomes eligible for 18 months Temporary Importation, with no VAT/duty to pay, if owned by a third country resident (and, perhaps, if flagged outside the EU27). It may also depend on where VAT was originally paid. Neither eventuality is likely to be undermined by wait-and-see.

 

[capnsensible]

At the risk of spoiling pages of speculation, has anyone read the Government paper?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advice-for-british-nationals-travelling-and-living-in-europe

Its a big website and that is one small part of it. dig in and there is a mass of information.

Enjoy. :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The "worst case" could be that the boat becomes eligible for 18 months Temporary Importation, with no VAT/duty to pay, if owned by a third country resident (and, perhaps, if flagged outside the EU27). It may also depend on where VAT was originally paid. Neither eventuality is likely to be undermined by wait-and-see.

Yes but if the boat is kept in the EU longer than 18months then VAT would be due, yes? However, I would expect in the long run, even in a disorderly No Deal Brexit situation, there would have to be an agreement between the EU and the UK that any goods on which VAT had been paid prior to Brexit day would be considered EU VAT paid after Brexit day irrespective of whether the goods were located in the UK or EU and vice versa of course otherwise potential VAT situations could arise with all sorts of vehicles, plant and machinery moving between the UK and EU and vice versa.

Btw does anyone know whether this situation has been addressed in the 500+ page withdrawal agreement proposed by May?

 

[macd]

Yes but if the boat is kept in the EU longer than 18months then VAT would be due, yes? However, I would expect in the long run, even in a disorderly No Deal Brexit situation, there would have to be an agreement between the EU and the UK that any goods on which VAT had been paid prior to Brexit day would be considered EU VAT paid after Brexit day irrespective of whether the goods were located in the UK or EU and vice versa of course otherwise potential VAT situations could arise with all sorts of vehicles, plant and machinery moving between the UK and EU and vice versa.

As to further agreements, I'm inclined to your view. Even if there's no deal at the point of Brexit, that's not to stop further ad hoc agreements being made. But we're both just guessing.

Regarding TI, the 18 month clock is re-set by leaving EU waters**. Technically, there's not even any need to visit another country -- just cruise into international waters and back again -- although it's easier to acquire convincing evidence if you do so. Depending where in France the boat is, that may be quite simple.

** So quite unlike the likely rules for people: 90 days in 180.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Regarding TI, the 18 month clock is re-set by leaving EU waters**. Technically, there's not even any need to visit another country -- just cruise into international waters and back again -- although it's easier to acquire convincing evidence if you do so. Depending where in France the boat is, that may be quite simple.

Not for me in the south of France it wouldnt be! What is the definition of EU waters in terms of distance from the coast? Btw do you think this is avoidable by re-registering the boat in another EU country? I see the Dutch Registry have been advertising quite heavily recently presumably hoping to attract UK registered boat owners. And where would this leave all those non British EU owners who have chosen to register their boats in the UK? You see plenty of UK flagged boats in the Med which are owned by non British EU owners

 

[Tranona]

Not for me in the south of France it wouldnt be! What is the definition of EU waters in terms of distance from the coast? Btw do you think this is avoidable by re-registering the boat in another EU country? I see the Dutch Registry have been advertising quite heavily recently presumably hoping to attract UK registered boat owners. And where would this leave all those non British EU owners who have chosen to register their boats in the UK? You see plenty of UK flagged boats in the Med which are owned by non British EU owners

Unless the new arrangements specifically use flag of registration as a determinant of free movement, the only thing that will matter is VAT payment. If the VAT on your boat was paid in one of the other 27 states then cannot see any reason why it should not still have free movement - even if you don't.

Registration and ownership are currently not a precondition of free movement, so an EU citizen can register his boat anywhere in the EU if the state will accept it, so EU citizen can register a boat on the UK Part 1, but not on the SSR unless they meet UK residence requirements. Equally anybody, citizen or not resident or not can own an EU VAT paid boat which currently has free movement. It does not have to be registered in the EU. However if it is not VAT paid and owned by a non EU resident it can only have TI but must be registered outside the EU.

There is nothing you can do to "protect" yourself or your boat from any future changes because you don't know what the new rules will be, except perhaps by ensuring it is in the EU (if it is VAT paid) on the crunch date if one is set. You could also take a punt on changing your boat for one where VAT was paid in one of the 27, but you may well then run the risk of maybe having restrictions on bringing it into the UK in the future.

As with everything to do with this pantomime we (including the PM) have absolutely no control and are totally dependent on what the EU decides is in their best interests.

 

[macd]

Not for me in the south of France it wouldn't be! What is the definition of EU waters in terms of distance from the coast?

Indeed. Nearest would be N Africa, I suppose. Monaco is part of the EU VAT/customs area, as I daresay you know.

EU waters extend 12 miles in most instances. You might take advice from local officials as to whether they accept simply entering international waters as sufficient. That's certainly the letter of EU law, but officials have been known to take a different view on many such matters...

Btw do you think this is avoidable by re-registering the boat in another EU country? I see the Dutch Registry have been advertising quite heavily recently presumably hoping to attract UK registered boat owners.

An EU flag could conceivably make the boat ineligible for TI, and thus due for VAT. I think it's doubtful that your boat, which presumably is currently VAT-paid in the EU28, would cease to be so in the 27. But stranger things have happened, so we don't know. Hence, keep your ears to the ground and wait for developments. Be wary that there are two types of Dutch "registry": the one often touted on-line is barely worth the envelope it comes in.

And where would this leave all those non British EU owners who have chosen to register their boats in the UK? You see plenty of UK flagged boats in the Med which are owned by non British EU owners

If they're wearing the flag just for fiscal benefit, then who cares? They can pay someone to find their own solution.

P.S. I see Tranona posted whilst I was typing. He knows what he's talking about.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Thanks Tranona and macd. I think I'll just keep my head in the sand and not think about it! One thing is for sure and that is that there will be tens of thousands of Med boat owning Brits who could be in the same predicament post 29 March. Part of the reason for mentioning Dutch registry is that a UK flagged boat might be a sitting duck target for VAT and safety checks after Brexit if the French decide to get nasty. I realise that changing the country of registration doesnt change the VAT status but registering under the Dutch registry, for example, might be a way of flying under the radar a bit for Brit owners

 

[Graham376]

Why would you want to bring her home? In a worst case scenario, you may run the risk that the boat loses its EU VAT paid status and you end up having to pay it again if you move it back into France. For that reason I'm leaving my boat in France even if my visits to it are curtailed

I suspect and hope you are wrong about VAT. if a boat is already EU VAT paid it should retain its status in current ownership.

 

[One A.]

Thanks Tranona and macd. I think I'll just keep my head in the sand and not think about it! One thing is for sure and that is that there will be tens of thousands of Med boat owning Brits who could be in the same predicament post 29 March. Part of the reason for mentioning Dutch registry is that a UK flagged boat might be a sitting duck target for VAT and safety checks after Brexit if the French decide to get nasty. I realise that changing the country of registration doesnt change the VAT status but registering under the Dutch registry, for example, might be a way of flying under the radar a bit for Brit owners

From another thread Mike you are looking to buy and get into the holiday rental market in France, as well as keeping your boat there, I strongly advise you take some professional advice. As to the Dutch and Belgium re flaging milarky, the noose is tightening.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

From another thread Mike you are looking to buy and get into the holiday rental market in France, as well as keeping your boat there, I strongly advise you take some professional advice. As to the Dutch and Belgium re flaging milarky, the noose is tightening.

We have already bought. In fact we completed on the purchase of the property last Friday and yes until I retire and can spend more time out there, we will be looking to rent the property. In fact I have just this minute got off the phone to a property management company (Les Bons Voisins) about looking after the property for us and guiding us through the minefields of septic tank laws and swimming pool regulations!