UK Boat Price Crash......

[boatmike]

So I am depressed. Sold my last boat about 3 years ago pre divorce at exactly the wrong time.

Now with Brexit and Covid prices seem to have gone crazy.

An example. 2 Starlight 35s on sale on Yachtmarket. UK one listed at £65k. Netherlands one listed at £51k. No coincidence I think. Same price more or less with import VAT. I think UK price 2 years ago £50k.
AWBs the same 20% differential between continental Europe and UK.

So..... predictions please...... and I will return to this thread in 18 months time when I am ready to buy.
Has my £50k budget for a 37 footer (not decided yet quite what) now changed from 50k to 65k?

Should I leave the country and buy in the USA? (I am also US citizen)
Should I leave the country and buy in the EU (aha I forgot I am a UK citizen and this is no use)

I was completely wrong in 2004 about a house price crash. I didn't realise that in the impending financial crisis of 2008 which I saw coming the UK government would prioritise house prices against everything else. Ditto Covid. Does the UK curse of ever rising house prices now apply to boats too?

Everyone blames Brexit for everything! I am not a fan and didn't support leaving but IMHO this has nothing to do with Brexit. Since Covid anything to do with "staycation" has boomed. Just got back from a week in Devon. EVERYTHING was overbooked and even Plymouth Barbican crowded. There has been a surge in demand for boats with loads of inexperienced newbies buying up anything that floats. Same with Caravans. I just sold one for £1000 more than I bought it for 3 years ago in 2 days. What happens next is anyone's guess. If foreign travel becomes easier its possible that many of these buyers could become discouraged by the reality and cost of boat ownership and go back to eating burgers in Spain. If this happens we will find more boats on the market and prices might reduce. Who knows?

 

[Refueler]

Where is over here?

Baltics - Latvia.

Its dumping ground for German / Swedish Auction cars .....

 

[Refueler]

OK perfect. Links? And has to appeal to my other half as a liveaboard...... So a 1977 Rival is not going to cut it.....

M<any sites initially give impression of being for lesser budget boats - but in fact gems can often be found in the listings ... Boats For Sale ... Boatshed .... Apolloduck .... as examples ..

Problem is when Googling for a boat - quite often the 'expensive' broker sites come up - leading to this sort of thread.

Boat 2nd hand prices ... like cars / houses .... people tend to look at other similar boats and quote similar price .. its a perpetuating false valuation ..... asking and actual sale price are often quite different.

I used to source boats for buyers and even today I get calls from people here (Latvia) wanting to get a boat ... they - like OP have gone online and found their cash doesn't buy what they want ... I search the budget sites and often find better boat for significantly less ...

Check out ALL sites and decide on an offer price ....

This is an example of one boat I found for a guy looking for a decent boat around the mid 60K mark ...... Jeaneau .. asking price 78K .... very nice priced near top of its market range .. was kitted out to high standards ... I suggested guy offer 65K ... seller accepted 69K ....
Boat was on a budget site.

 

[Refueler]

Having scoured sites recently for a 30 - 35ft boat for close pal ... it only reinforced my previous findings that sellers have high expectations ...... and many boats get listed - don't sell - then not long after - site says price reduced ...

I agree that asking prices have risen .. but I also think that having been successful in the search for my pal to get the boat he wanted at less money than he had available .. at a price that seller drastically reduced from asking ... I do not agree that boats are flying of the brokers lists ............

Now ? I only source for friends ... and myself !!

 

[mrming]

Everyone blames Brexit for everything! I am not a fan and didn't support leaving but IMHO this has nothing to do with Brexit. Since Covid anything to do with "staycation" has boomed. Just got back from a week in Devon. EVERYTHING was overbooked and even Plymouth Barbican crowded. There has been a surge in demand for boats with loads of inexperienced newbies buying up anything that floats. Same with Caravans. I just sold one for £1000 more than I bought it for 3 years ago in 2 days. What happens next is anyone's guess. If foreign travel becomes easier its possible that many of these buyers could become discouraged by the reality and cost of boat ownership and go back to eating burgers in Spain. If this happens we will find more boats on the market and prices might reduce. Who knows?

I think there are two dynamics pushing up prices. The “staycation” one as you and others have mentioned, and the “lack of supply” dynamic that Tranona has pointed out. The staycation effect is likely short term, but the lack of / higher price of newer boats is likely to have a knock on effect for a while. Those boats used to come from Europe, and now it’s not economically viable to bring them in. Prices at the lower end might soften once the staycationers dump their boats, but the medium and high end might just be 20% more expensive for a much longer time.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I was pondering this last year but for different reasons. Yachts are leisure things, luxuries, so depend on excess, available and money. The boomers have done well, now elderly, good money and spare cash to buy boats when working and in retirement.

Today, it is common to think that those starting out on their careers, millennials, are debt laden professionals facing significant house price inflation i.e. little spare cash. Trades and blue collar may not have so much debt but still face the house price inflation and therefore, on balance don’t have spare cash.

However, the latch-key generation, or Gen-X, who follow on from the boomers. Many of us, I am one, are in our late 40s to late 50’s, ride the tail winds of the boomers and received some of their benefits. Many are comfortable having dodged the bursting bubbles. Many will also inherit, the last of the silent generation’s assets. In other words, they will replicate to a degree, spare boomer cash.

I think that the UK yacht scene will therefore still have sufficient free cash for those who invest in yachts, and I believe that sailing, still has a significant following in the UK. I don’t therefore see much change beyond done cyclic blips here and there.

 

[coopec]

I was pondering this last year but for different reasons. Yachts are leisure things, luxuries, so depend on excess, available and money. The boomers have done well, now elderly, good money and spare cash to buy boats when working and in retirement.

Today, it is common to think that those starting out on their careers, millennials, are debt laden professionals facing significant house price inflation i.e. little spare cash. Trades and blue collar may not have so much debt but still face the house price inflation and therefore, on balance don’t have spare cash.

However, the latch-key generation, or Gen-X, who follow on from the boomers. Many of us, I am one, are in our late 40s to late 50’s, ride the tail winds of the boomers and received some of their benefits. Many are comfortable having dodged the bursting bubbles. Many will also inherit, the last of the silent generation’s assets. In other words, they will replicate to a degree, spare boomer cash.

I think that the UK yacht scene will therefore still have sufficient free cash for those who invest in yachts, and I believe that sailing, still has a significant following in the UK. I don’t therefore see much change beyond done cyclic blips here and there.

Yes it is much the same in Australia.

I built my first house for $20K but these days it would be worth $600K - just because of inflation. Young people these days are up to there neck in debt (albeit low interest rates) but absolutely no inflation (and they have to build their house two days camel ride out from the city) Those people would have no aspirations of buying a yacht.

 

[jac]

I was pondering this last year but for different reasons. Yachts are leisure things, luxuries, so depend on excess, available and money. The boomers have done well, now elderly, good money and spare cash to buy boats when working and in retirement.

Today, it is common to think that those starting out on their careers, millennials, are debt laden professionals facing significant house price inflation i.e. little spare cash. Trades and blue collar may not have so much debt but still face the house price inflation and therefore, on balance don’t have spare cash.

However, the latch-key generation, or Gen-X, who follow on from the boomers. Many of us, I am one, are in our late 40s to late 50’s, ride the tail winds of the boomers and received some of their benefits. Many are comfortable having dodged the bursting bubbles. Many will also inherit, the last of the silent generation’s assets. In other words, they will replicate to a degree, spare boomer cash.

I think that the UK yacht scene will therefore still have sufficient free cash for those who invest in yachts, and I believe that sailing, still has a significant following in the UK. I don’t therefore see much change beyond done cyclic blips here and there.

I'm not sure.

I'm also gen X and whilst our intention was to buy another boat and keep on the Solent, I'm having doubts: Bad weather, high expense (even on a Hamble Harbour master mooring), competition for free time, family with other pressures and are all reasons to not buy. The attraction of a sail down to Yarmouth AGAIN for a night also starts to lose it's appeal! Add in ( during non Covid times) the chance to go and sail somewhere warm for a couple of weeks for the same cost and for working people it becomes very attractive to sail overseas instead.

After retirement and when time is no longer an issue, it is still viable for a healthy retired couple to buy and keep a boat in the Med for fewer but longer sails, rather than in the UK, despite the Schengen 90/180 issue. so even that group may not support the UK market.

As for inheriting, Whilst it will be a useful lump sum to get, i read recently that the average age to inherit is 61. At that age, ones own children are probably looking to buy their own houses, or having children or just finishing university so many Gen X parents will probably feel the need to pass some of that inheritance on to their own children, more so that was perhaps required when we were that age.

Taken together ( and demographics) and i wouldn't be surprised to see prices decline as demand falls.

 

[Quandary]

In Scotland the exceptionally benign weather we have experienced for the lat 5 months is also a factor, no one has been cold or seasick, no-ones anchor has dragged in the middle of the night, the all day sunshine and light winds with the occasional thermal breeze to give an afternoon 3 hour sail followed by a flat calm sunset has encouraged the view that yachting is a better form of camper vanning. The anchorages you expect to have to yourself are occupied by folk who normally want to tie up alongside.
Let us hope it repeats but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Tranona]

M<any sites initially give impression of being for lesser budget boats - but in fact gems can often be found in the listings ... Boats For Sale ... Boatshed .... Apolloduck .... as examples ..

Problem is when Googling for a boat - quite often the 'expensive' broker sites come up - leading to this sort of thread.

Boat 2nd hand prices ... like cars / houses .... people tend to look at other similar boats and quote similar price .. its a perpetuating false valuation ..... asking and actual sale price are often quite different.

I used to source boats for buyers and even today I get calls from people here (Latvia) wanting to get a boat ... they - like OP have gone online and found their cash doesn't buy what they want ... I search the budget sites and often find better boat for significantly less ...

Check out ALL sites and decide on an offer price ....

This is an example of one boat I found for a guy looking for a decent boat around the mid 60K mark ...... Jeaneau .. asking price 78K .... very nice priced near top of its market range .. was kitted out to high standards ... I suggested guy offer 65K ... seller accepted 69K ....
Boat was on a budget site.

This is not reflected in the UK. The vast majority of boats of any value are sold through brokers - very few "hidden gems".

A few examples taken from Apolloduck which is probably the biggest listing site in the UK used by both private and trade sellers. I have chosen popular brands where there are sufficient boats listed to draw reasonable conclusions.

Brand Total Trade (broker) Private

Beneteau 39 31 8

Moody 38 30 8

Jenneau 61 51 10

Westerly 73 64 9

Sadler 15 10 5

Nicholson 18 13 5

Hunter 39 18 21


The private sellers were invariably offering smaller, cheaper boats - obvious with the Hunter split. I was somewhat surprised at how few Westerlys were offered by private sellers given the number of smaller (under 30') cheaper boats for sale.

A UK buyer putting into Google "XXX yacht for sale" will get Yachtworld, Yachtmarket, Apolloduck and a smattering of brokers. The first 3 will cover almost all the boats actively on the national market and as you will see 75% or so will be with brokers - more in the larger sizes.

Does not mean that all boats are advertised and sols through the national market but pretty difficult to find a specific boat through other means.

 

[Refueler]

This is not reflected in the UK. The vast majority of boats of any value are sold through brokers - very few "hidden gems".

Are you saying that Boatshed, Boats for Sale, Apolloduck etc.,,, are not showing Brokers boats ??

Where did I say look for private sale ?

When I mentioned 'Expensive Brokers' .. the likes of Shmidt are such ... where they concentrate on large boats and better returns for them. If they do show a lesser boat - pricing is often at top of range or even higher ...

Your table of numbers is interesting but irrelevant to this matter.

As to boats flying of the lists ................ please explain why I get emails from brokers about boats I viewed online months ago ... even last year ... STILL for sale .. such as a nice Jeanneau on the South Coast (that was late last year I viewed online) . Its not only one ... I have numerous emails inviting me to make offers on similar.

Just because I live in Latvia - does not stop me trawling the Boat sites looking for a boat ... and UK market is actually first I look in ... because of the sheer number of boats in UK and for sale.

 

[Bouba]

Predicting a boat market that closely follows the economy is as fraught as predicting the economy. If interest rates go up it would suck discretionary spending out of the economy, especially young people with large mortgages.
The crash of ‘08 caused everyone to sell up their boats, and if I recall, they were all bought up Europeans. When the European economy tanked shortly after, the trade reversed. Macro events, like recession or pandemic determine the market and who really knows what the future holds

 

[pvb]

As to boats flying of the lists ................ please explain why I get emails from brokers about boats I viewed online months ago ... even last year ... STILL for sale .. such as a nice Jeanneau on the South Coast (that was late last year I viewed online) . Its not only one ... I have numerous emails inviting me to make offers on similar.

In the current UK used boat market, it seems that anything which has been hanging around is either (a) unrealistically overpriced, (b) in poor condition, or (c) both.

 

[Bouba]

I have to say that anybody who is reading this thread would put an extra ten grand on the asking price of their boat

 

[Caraway]

Is that the one with the blower on the front?

?

 

[Tranona]

Are you saying that Boatshed, Boats for Sale, Apolloduck etc.,,, are not showing Brokers boats ??

Where did I say look for private sale ?

When I mentioned 'Expensive Brokers' .. the likes of Shmidt are such ... where they concentrate on large boats and better returns for them. If they do show a lesser boat - pricing is often at top of range or even higher ...

Your table of numbers is interesting but irrelevant to this matter.

As to boats flying of the lists ................ please explain why I get emails from brokers about boats I viewed online months ago ... even last year ... STILL for sale .. such as a nice Jeanneau on the South Coast (that was late last year I viewed online) . Its not only one ... I have numerous emails inviting me to make offers on similar.

Just because I live in Latvia - does not stop me trawling the Boat sites looking for a boat ... and UK market is actually first I look in ... because of the sheer number of boats in UK and for sale.

Boatshed IS a broker with franchised offices around the country (and overseas). Currently has over 1000 boats listed roughly 50/50 sail/motor worldwide. Network is a similar franchise organisation with many branches and similar numbers of boats listed. Apolloduck is a listing site that lists boats from brokers who pay to advertise on their site, but also take private ads. The figures I quoted were for the current ads in Apolloduck and as you can see the majority (75% or so) are adverts from brokers.

Boatsforsale is a small free listing site, but has less than 100 sailing boats listed. Yachtworld and Yachtmarket are listing sites for subscribing brokers, no private adverts. There are various other listing sites, mostly aimed at brokers although some private, but none really of much consequence in the UK. Ebay, Gumtree, Facebook also have mostly private ads, but usually for lower value boats.

Then you have all the independent brokers/dealers, some small, others like Ancasta very large - but almost all subscribe to Yachtworld and/orYachtmarket and many to Apolloduck.

The point that I was making is that if you use a search engine like Google you will get all those sites come up and in the UK that will lead you to the vast majority of boats on the market both private or with brokers at any one time. I chose Apolloduck to review because that is the one that lists both private and trade boats with paid adverts to illustrate that only a minority of the typical cruisers on sale are being offered by the owners direct. This is nothing new as brokers have always dominated this market.

I have no idea why you are being contacted by brokers - as said by many people there has to be something wrong with a boat if it is not selling quickly in the UK (and much of Europe). There are of course pockets where boats are not selling. For example Croatia and Greece are both awash with charter boats that operators are desperately trying to sell because of the drop in holiday activity. Similarly lots for sale in more remote places like Turkey, Thailand, Caribbean because of the difficulties of travelling.

While there is seemingly a large number of boats for sale in the UK that is because there is a large boat population as befits a country of 60 million people surrounded by water and criscrossed by rivers and canals but it is a fraction of what it is in "normal" times. My local independent broker normally has around 40 sailing boats listed, mostly under £40k but only 15 now. The early 2000s Bav 34 was a big seller and up to 2 years ago there were usually 8-10 on the market at any one time. Today there are none. You can find plenty of other examples - and brokers are more likely to be phoning owners to persuade them to list their boats - I have had 2 such approaches recently!

 

[Refueler]

Tranona .... I applaud your typing skills and to write so much ... but why you think it necessary ???

As to Brokers contacting me ... because I search online for boats for people I know and trust - I have logins with all the usual sites and well aware of who is Broker and who is not ... that is why my previous post and ??
I have lost count of number of Beneteaus ... Jenneaus .... Nicholsons ..... etc. I have viewed online and later I get an email from Broker asking if I am still interested in xx boat .. would I like to make an offer. Quite often they are offering reduced prices ..

I don't post this for nothing or just for sake of it ...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I'm not sure. ... Taken together ( and demographics) and i wouldn't be surprised to see prices decline as demand falls.

Its just my opinion and of course you may be right. I was trying to point out that there are potential sources of spare money floating about for a generation that is largely ignored. I think the stuff that affects the market is the same as always, inflation, job security, economic growth and that will not change. I also think that demand for sailing in the UK is generally in a healthy state, independently from abroad. I also think that global warming will come more into play favouring northern Europe over the Mediterranean. Is staycation here to stay, not likely, but the foreign is best may be tempered somewhat. It's just how I see it.

 

[roblpm]

Tranona .... I applaud your typing skills and to write so much ... but why you think it necessary ???

As to Brokers contacting me ... because I search online for boats for people I know and trust - I have logins with all the usual sites and well aware of who is Broker and who is not ... that is why my previous post and ??
I have lost count of number of Beneteaus ... Jenneaus .... Nicholsons ..... etc. I have viewed online and later I get an email from Broker asking if I am still interested in xx boat .. would I like to make an offer. Quite often they are offering reduced prices ..

I don't post this for nothing or just for sake of it ...

Its all good information from both of you!

 

[jonic]

We usually have 20 -25 specialist yachts for sale at any one time, currently we have seven. Two of which have offers on.

Mid to upper range £100-200k UK VAT paid 40 -45 footers were literally hardly touching the sides at one point, with sometimes 20 or so buyers after the same boat. It wasn't pretty.

We have a long waiting list of buyers and I don't see it changing for a while.

The vast majority are retired or retiring or are younger and quitting the rat race to go sailing.