UK Boat Price Crash......

Refueler said:
Tranona .... I applaud your typing skills and to write so much ... but why you think it necessary ???
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In this case because you seemed confused as to who is a broker and what listing sites are so I thought I would try and explain it more clearly. I get the emails as well - but only if they have got your details by you registering your interest - not just browsing. Then the emails go out automatically - and if there is a price reduction that triggers an automatic email to any address they have linked to the boat, in the almost certain knowledge it won't lead to an offer. It is however costless. Does not indicate that there are masses of unsold boats as you seem to be suggesting. it is just that your email address is on a lot of brokers' mailing lists!

jonic's post reflects the real situation.
 
jonic said:
We usually have 20 -25 specialist yachts for sale at any one time, currently we have seven. Two of which have offers on.

Mid to upper range £100-200k UK VAT paid 40 -45 footers were literally hardly touching the sides at one point, with sometimes 20 or so buyers after the same boat. It wasn't pretty.

We have a long waiting list of buyers and I don't see it changing for a while.

The vast majority are retired or retiring or are younger and quitting the rat race to go sailing.
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You have my admiration .....

I also know a number of Brokers who are struggling and have had to join 'syndicated' groupings to keep going .... I can only assume it depends what market range operated in.

I am friends with two yacht builders ..... they (owners) have made it plain that the small to medium size boats ... ie 22 - 35ft are extremely difficult markets to be in and production costs vs selling prices are prohibitive. They both moved away from the 'family ~30ftrs' to larger boats where profit margin meant a few boats were better than a flurry of smaller ...
One offered service to a well known mark ... but not accepted ... not because of their tendered pricing ... but conformation of larger boat market ...

This should bode well for sellers of the 30 - 38ft'rs on 2nd hand market ..... but as I say - I see too many same boats on sale for months and longer ...

I know some say Covid has no effect on sales .............. mmmm I know a number of people in UK who are talking about selling as they have had their boats stood for a year untouched .......... their earnings down ....

I know others who WERE looking to buy a boat .. but Covid appeared .... they were prevented from checking out boats. Over time their spare cash and bank loans that were initially available - no longer there.

Those that have been able to weather the recent couple of years and able to buy a boat ... but they are not a majority.

I'm lucky that my business has continued .... but thats another story
 
Tranona said:
In this case because you seemed confused as to who is a broker and what listing sites are so I thought I would try and explain it more clearly. I get the emails as well - but only if they have got your details by you registering your interest - not just browsing. Then the emails go out automatically - and if there is a price reduction that triggers an automatic email to any address they have linked to the boat, in the almost certain knowledge it won't lead to an offer. It is however costless. Does not indicate that there are masses of unsold boats as you seem to be suggesting. it is just that your email address is on a lot of brokers' mailing lists!

jonic's post reflects the real situation.
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You seem to be under some impression that I did not know about Brokers and sites ...

I suggest go back and read Jonics post and see what range he is referring to .... not exactly what OP is looking for ....
 
roblpm said:
What are you selling?!
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Westerly Oceanlord. I wouldn't say "selling" yet, more realising that downsizing is rational and trying to come to terms with it. Separating yourself from a boat you've had more than a decade isn't an easy choice. It was a great liveaboard but I’m not a liveaboard any more and having just started a proper job my globetrotting plans are being downgraded to weekend jaunts for the foreseeable future so something smaller (and cheaper /easier to park) would make sense.

Interesting to hear that depreciation is currently minimal. I've previously thought that buying new was for people with more money than sense but maybe it adds some additional interest to wandering around the pontoons at southampton....
 
Refueler said:
You seem to be under some impression that I did not know about Brokers and sites ...

I suggest go back and read Jonics post and see what range he is referring to .... not exactly what OP is looking for ....
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Re read your post#31 which seems confused to me. BTW Schmidt(MSP in the UK) is a general broker which handles boats at all levels of the market, but particularly in the mid range which is exactly what the OP is looking for. They are also the UK Hanse dealer. The OP started this thread because he has seen the shortage of boats and rising prices for the few that are on the market.

I know John well and his experience is exactly the same as all other brokers at all levels - see post#36 last paragraph for an example - or just look at any UK brokerage site. I could list them for you and also for some give you an idea of how their current stock compares with more normal times, but I am sure you can do that yourself.
 
laika said:
Interesting to hear that depreciation is currently minimal. I've previously thought that buying new was for people with more money than sense but maybe it adds some additional interest to wandering around the pontoons at southampton....
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I am afraid it is an illusion. Existing boats are unlikely to fall in monetary value and may well increase in response to market forces - demand exceeds supply. However current values are way out from replacement cost. my boat cost £100k or so in 2015, but current replacement cost is £140k. We have been through an unprecedented period of price stability. My 37 which I bought in 2001 to a similar spec to the newer boat cost £90k and even the much bigger new 37 in 2015 was only £115k. So with new prices rising only very slowly, used boats depreciated quickly. I sold the 37 in 2015 for around £40k! In my view general inflation in the near future will add to the already high " new boat" inflation and monetary value of boats will also rise.

Buying new only makes sense if you take the long view, and if it is purely a leisure purchase then only if you have the money and it represents a relatively small part of your net assets - or you buy it as a business proposition as I did with the first one through a charter management scheme. You can also (particularly if you are an accountant) draw graphs plotting depreciation and maintenance/replacement over time which will show that over say a 10 year period there is little difference in total cost between buying a 10 year old boat and a new one. Bit of "man maths" but actually fairly sound in practice. You can do the same with cars. I bought new for over 30 years and typically kept cars for between 8 and (the last one) 15 years.

I loved buying a new boat, particularly the current one because money was not really an issue as the funds had originally been earmarked for another retirement activity that we were not able to undertake - and as the saying goes "there are no pockets on a shroud". Getting a bit of a warm feeling now that it seems it will not lose as much of the capital value as I expected, even though in real terms the loss will be greater than in monetary terms.
 
When we sailed in Poole Harbour there were many sunseeker cruisers used as weekend homes and for entertaining clients.

I am lucky. Our 43' Deck Saloon yacht is berthed in Nazare Marina for €1650 pa incl elec and water. We lived on board for well over 1year while our new house was being built. Cheapest acommodation I have ever known in last 60yrs!! There appears no objection here in Nazare for liveaboards - different from what I am reading about peoples attempts to find a liveaboard berth in the Solent.
Covod isolation there were 4 livaboard families.

The wooden trawler next to us was built in Scotland circa 1912! I doubt if it fit for sea. A Belgium owns it and uses it as a live aboard holiday home.

I suspect when we finally decide to sell our boat it will be snapped up by a person who wants the cheapest holiday home in a sunny part of the EU plus the ability to take friends sailing day trips dolphin watching. I suspect that by the time we sell sailing might have less influence in any buying decision than might be anticipated.

An alternative I never considered when we initially bought our apartment in Nazare but after our liveaboard experience something I should have seriously considered.

A few that post on here got Portuguese residency just by being based on a UK yacht berthed in a Portuguese marina. Hence limitations of stay period in the EU post Brexit are avoided!

Possibly a changing market for many!

Just in case I am wrong i am still maintaining the boat so that we can do a years sailing in the Med or sail it back to UK for sale.

If we could all predict market changes - we would all be millionaires!!
 
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Tranona said:
I am afraid it is an illusion. Existing boats are unlikely to fall in monetary value and may well increase in response to market forces - demand exceeds supply. However current values are way out from replacement cost. my boat cost £100k or so in 2015, but current replacement cost is £140k. We have been through an unprecedented period of price stability. My 37 which I bought in 2001 to a similar spec to the newer boat cost £90k and even the much bigger new 37 in 2015 was only £115k. So with new prices rising only very slowly, used boats depreciated quickly. I sold the 37 in 2015 for around £40k! In my view general inflation in the near future will add to the already high " new boat" inflation and monetary value of boats will also rise.

Buying new only makes sense if you take the long view, and if it is purely a leisure purchase then only if you have the money and it represents a relatively small part of your net assets - or you buy it as a business proposition as I did with the first one through a charter management scheme. You can also (particularly if you are an accountant) draw graphs plotting depreciation and maintenance/replacement over time which will show that over say a 10 year period there is little difference in total cost between buying a 10 year old boat and a new one. Bit of "man maths" but actually fairly sound in practice. You can do the same with cars. I bought new for over 30 years and typically kept cars for between 8 and (the last one) 15 years.

I loved buying a new boat, particularly the current one because money was not really an issue as the funds had originally been earmarked for another retirement activity that we were not able to undertake - and as the saying goes "there are no pockets on a shroud". Getting a bit of a warm feeling now that it seems it will not lose as much of the capital value as I expected, even though in real terms the loss will be greater than in monetary terms.
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You are correct - for any given length of boat the new prices have not "yet" increased substantially or in line with inflation.

Yet compare the total weight of any boat say 37' Bavaria say 1998 then say every 5yrs and you will note often weight of materials in the boat has decreased. Less materials = less cost.

Modern boats are better designed for minimum material cost for any given length. They are not weak but designed better to the limit of the material used strength. I say that as an owner of a 2005 43' Jeanneau Deck Saloon and was amazed how Jeanneau kept prices reasonably stable by making the boats lighter..

This does give rise to all sorts of discussions. Is a 1960 narrow, long keel, heavy 36'boat better than a modern 36' production boat?

Unless you are sailing around the world I humbly suggest not - just a cheaper boat in need of modernising!
 
Tranona said:
I am afraid it is an illusion.
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I may have expressed my point poorly. Only a crazy person would regard buying a boat as a sensible investment.

The point I was trying to make was that in previous years you would get so much more for your money buying used. With second hand boats being snapped up, the "new premium" is less and *may* approach a value I might be prepared to consider, especially when you factor in sailfree's point about more cost effective production on modern boats.

If only I'd been drawn to a Bavaria at Boot last year rather than the Najad 395...
 
laika said:
buying new was for people with more money than sense but maybe it adds some additional interest to wandering around the pontoons at southampton....
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Sadly you won’t find many new boats at Southampton this year. The exhibitor list looks a bit bleak.
 
pvb said:
In the current UK used boat market, it seems that anything which has been hanging around is either (a) unrealistically overpriced, (b) in poor condition, or (c) both.
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A specific case.
A fellow club member looking to buy a particular boat, looked at the only three examples of that motorboat up for sale , advertised both both privately and on brokers websites for some considerable time.
He also managed to view, in desperation, one or two alternative (larger more expensive) boats which were still up for sale .
All the boats he was actually able to view , forget the asking price, were absolute dogs not even worthy of an offer.
The reason they were still on the market was obvious.
He ended up buying from a fellow club member , the boat which had been moved abroad some time ago is being repatriated shortly.
 
Tranona said:
and brokers are more likely to be phoning owners to persuade them to list their boats - I have had 2 such approaches recently!
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Happened to a skipper moored behind me earlier this year, he has a Princess 45 was phoned twice to see if his boat was up sale.
His reply, Everything is for sale but whats out there for him to buy. ?
 
My impression is that the price ( and availability ) of all the supply chain production, continuity , skill, raw materials and bought in components that go to make a new boat- or a refurbished one- are ever subject to inflationary pressures ..

How exactly are whole, sorted boats , any boats, going to become cheaper?

If inflation goes silly , we may see the asking prices for second hand remain steady for unwanted s/h stuff whilst the purchasing power of each £ become devalued
Maybe

But, If or as people get into financial trouble or become disaffected with their yachting, it will be the marginal , rougher boats that fall first under the knock down hammer . So, still not such a bargain really even at knockdown pricing
Particularly if you value your time and want to Go Sailing
Hmm
Buy well, buy once, enjoy . As ever was, I guess?
 
Koeketiene said:
A boat has been a part of our lives for over 25 years.
My other half no longer has any illusions.
FWIW: she's also stopped asking 'if you had to choose between the boat and me... '. ?
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My wife always says "your boat" and I correct her and say "our boat". Then she says "How many 64ths do I have?" The answer of course is none as I did the paperwork.
 
pvb said:
My wife always says "your boat" and I correct her and say "our boat". Then she says "How many 64ths do I have?" The answer of course is none as I did the paperwork.
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It's 'your boat' in Winter and when the invoices arrive.
It's 'our boat' in Summer when we're having a drink in the cockpit with friends/family.
 
Koeketiene said:
A boat has been a part of our lives for over 25 years.
My other half no longer has any illusions.
FWIW: she's also stopped asking 'if you had to choose between the boat and me... '. ?
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I always ask her ‘me or the dog?’.....
 
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